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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ Dates different
Posted by: snowdragon Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 18:47
Post #1363591
Evening all,
I received a NIP/S172 form for speeding on X date. I completed the form and sent it back to the police. I was slightly confused as the car I didn't think I was there at the time, nor the speed alleged - and CCTV backs this up from my address. I made a phone call to the police and was told the offence wouldn't be discussed, and should I wish to do so a Court hearing would be the correct place to discuss my concerns. I noted the concerns on the S172 form within the comments box.
I heard nothing for a few months then received a summons.
However, the offence date on the summons charge sheet contains a completely different date to the NIP/S172 notice. The statement attached also shows a different date. The dates are not one or two days out, but nearly 4 weeks.
The vehicle has a number of people insured to drive it. The registered keeper, me, received no further NIPs/S172 notices.
It seems I am charged on the basis of the original response to X date, and been charged for an offence on Y date. I responded naming a driver for X date, not Y date - and of course I wasn't to know they wanted a driver for Y date.
Any thoughts before I respond to the summons?
Posted by: mdann52 Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:02
Post #1363594
Have they charged you with speeding, or failure to provide details?
Posted by: Redivi Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:11
Post #1363596
It's not clear from your account if you're referring to two speeding events four weeks apart or an S172 offence following the original event
The S172 offence for the original NIP was committed 28 days after you received it because you had back-tracked on the identification of the driver
Posted by: Jlc Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 19:38
Post #1363606
What exactly did you say when returning the nomination?
Was the driver unequivocally named (You?) and signed?
What charges are on the summons?
What does the CCTV back up? (Are you saying the car wasn't there or you?)
As already noted a potential s172 offence for failing to furnish driver details occurs 28 days after the request is made.
Posted by: snowdragon Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 20:39
Post #1363624
Was the driver unequivocally named (You?) and signed?
What charges are on the summons?
What does the CCTV back up? (Are you saying the car wasn't there or you?)
As already noted a potential s172 offence for failing to furnish driver details occurs 28 days after the request is made.
Apologies, the driver was named as me as I did use the road going home on the original date stated - as it is local - however, I dispute the time. CCTV from my house shows at the alleged offence time that my car was at home. On the date stated on the NIP/S172, I only had access to the car.
The charge is for speeding, NOT failing to ID the driver.
On receiving the summons, the date is 4 weeks later - although the time remains the same. There has been no additional letters asking for the driver's identity on the charged offence date. I believe that the offence is one, rather than two, and the date completed incorrectly on the original NIP/S172. These haven't been sent by the Ticket Office, but a individual police officer.
Posted by: Jlc Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:06
Post #1363628
What sort of difference in time are we talking here? Minutes/hours?
What's the alleged speed/limit?
Posted by: Redivi Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:15
Post #1363629
Could you confirm that I've understood correctly ?
1 You received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date X
2 You returned the form and identified yourself as driver because you were driving at the location but not at the exact time stated and expressed your doubts
3 You checked records and CCTV later and discovered the car was indeed not there at the time stated - how wrong is the time and how far away were you ?
4 You contacted the police with your doubts
5 You have now received a summons for a speeding offence on Date Y which happens to be four weeks after Date X
6 You have not been charged with a S172 offence
7 You have never received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date Y
8 You have not been charged with a speeding offence on Date X
The police would have assumed your phone call to mean that you wouldn't accept a fixed penalty if offered leaving court as the only option
If the above statements are correct, a possible explanation is that they confused the dates of the speeding and an S172 offence that they probably intended to charge
The error in time isn't a defence if you haven't been misled about the incident
You clearly knew what it referred to when you sent your reply
I'm not convinced that the error of the date can be so easily dismissed
Does the charge have a reference number that ties it to the original NIP ?
If it doesn't, the OP can argue that he's never received a NIP for Date Y and there is no evidence that he was the driver on that date
Posted by: snowdragon Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 21:20
Post #1363630
What's the alleged speed/limit?
6 hours difference.
Offence is 77 in a 50.
I am conscious that a signed statement must be true from my side, so I made the call, and then put my concerns down in the notes section stating that I had evidence to show my vehicle was not at the location at the alleged time.
Could it have been 4 weeks later? Maybe, but as said multiple people are insured, but no request has been received in respect of that date.
1 You received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date X
2 You returned the form and identified yourself as driver because you were driving at the location but not at the exact time stated and expressed your doubts
3 You checked records and CCTV later and discovered the car was indeed not there at the time stated - how wrong is the time and how far away were you ?
4 You contacted the police with your doubts
5 You have now received a summons for a speeding offence on Date Y which happens to be four weeks after Date X
6 You have not been charged with a S172 offence
7 You have never received a NIP/S172 for a speeding offence on Date Y
8 You have not been charged with a speeding offence on Date X
The police would have assumed your phone call to mean that you wouldn't accept a fixed penalty if offered leaving court as the only option
If the above statements are correct, a possible explanation is that they confused the dates of the speeding and an S172 offence that they probably intended to charge
The error in time isn't a defence if you haven't been misled about the incident
You clearly knew what it referred to when you sent your reply
I'm not convinced that the error of the date can be so easily dismissed
Does the charge have a reference number that ties it to the original NIP ?
If it doesn't, the OP can argue that he's never received a NIP for Date Y and there is no evidence that he was the driver on that date
Yes - the evidence with the Summons includes an exhibit of the original NIP/S172 notice which the police say they sent and refer to in the statement. This carries date X. No evidence within the statement shows how the police identified the driver on date Y.
Posted by: Kickaha Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 22:07
Post #1363643
When did you receive the first NIP in relation to the dates of the alleged offence ( the date given on the NIP and the court summons)?
Posted by: snowdragon Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 22:29
Post #1363646
3 days after date of the offence (Date Y) on the summons. Of course at the time of receiving I was none the wiser.
I did think about the 14 day rule, however, the keeper changed from my father to me just after the offence date on the original NIP (Date X)
Posted by: Jlc Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 08:44
Post #1363678
You say this was a 'manually' processed NIP by a PC?
Posted by: snowdragon Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 09:14
Post #1363683
Correct. The NIP/S172 are completed by a PC with the statement also written by them. Their department is not the Ticket Office.
Posted by: The Rookie Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 10:06
Post #1363691
It wouldn’t be.
What does the statement say was the means of capturing the offence?
You have two thrusts to your defence, no NIP and no driver ID, should be fairly simple it looks.
Posted by: snowdragon Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 10:20
Post #1363694
What does the statement say was the means of capturing the offence?
You have two thrusts to your defence, no NIP and no driver ID, should be fairly simple it looks.
Offence was captured during an average speed check with the PCs unmarked police vehicle pacing behind. Notes in the statement show the PC was unable to stop me at the time due to an immediate grade call coming in. The statement goes on to explain how they sent a NIP/S172 themselves, received a reply and exhibited it themselves. Only involvement with the Ticket Office was submitting the file for summons. NIP/S172 all from the PC. No mention of calls or the comments I said around my "concerns".
Posted by: The Rookie Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 11:36
Post #1363713
So you have a solid defence on either one of those two bases, once the CPS realise they’ll probably drop it like a hot tuber.
Posted by: snowdragon Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 12:06
Post #1363722
Thanks. I'll respond as such on the summons but as it goes to the Court, i'll follow up separately with the CPS.
Surprised it got through as I thought all files were reviewed! I'll give the CPS a ring once I have a new date and they've hopefully got the file.
Posted by: The Rookie Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 12:47
Post #1363728
The CPS won’t get the file until your not guilty plea is entered into the system after the first hearing, they have no need to see them until after that as the Police are the only ones involved so far.
Posted by: snowdragon Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 12:51
Post #1363730
No problem. I'll respond NG and give the police contact a ring as listed on the summons, then see what the CPS say.
I'll keep you updated!
Posted by: andy_foster Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 14:23
Post #1363752
Did you actually receive a summons? If so, where did the alleged offence occur?
Posted by: The Rookie Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 14:27
Post #1363753
However, the offence date on the summons charge sheet contains a completely different date to the NIP/S172 notice. The statement attached also shows a different date. The dates are not one or two days out, but nearly 4 weeks.
Seems likely he has a summons?
Posted by: andy_foster Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 15:38
Post #1363762
Unlike some, I can actually read. I can also exercise critical thinking and question the validity and accuracy of purported facts.
Depending on whether s. 29(4) CJA 2003 is in force or not, public prosecutors issuing a summons (as opposed to an SJPN or postal requisition) is either merely vanishingly rare or unlawful.
Posted by: snowdragon Sun, 4 Mar 2018 - 16:48
Post #1363772
Unlike some, I can actually read. I can also exercise critical thinking and question the validity and accuracy of purported facts.
Depending on whether s. 29(4) CJA 2003 is in force or not, public prosecutors issuing a summons (as opposed to an SJPN or postal requisition) is either merely vanishingly rare or unlawful.
Apologies it is a postal requisition. My reference to summons is simply what I called it generically.
Posted by: snowdragon Tue, 13 Mar 2018 - 14:28
Post #1366391
Trial date set.
Let's see what the CPS have to say. No file as yet!
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