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PCN for accidentally parking in pay to park bay, Totally in the wrong, but very easy mistake to make - can I challenge?
westylad071
post Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 13:51
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Hello,

I have received a penalty charge notice for parking in a pay to park bay. The street I live on is residents parking only in London and the vast majority of the street (and the area) is for "A zone" residents and my car is fully registered and I park in those spaces. Some spaces are residents-or-pay-to-park and a very small number of spaces are pay-to-park only.

However earlier this week by complete mistake I parked in a bay which I now know is pay-to-park only. This is the first time I have done this but as I didn't know, I left the car and incurred two penalty charge notices. By the letter of the law I am completely in the wrong but it's very easy to make this mistake when a) it's difficult to find any other parking b) it's late at night and c) you actually have to read the sign for your bay to find out (which clearly I am stupid for not having done).

I rang the council, they were not willing to give me any leniency and in said I only had two options: challenge or pay. I haven't done anything yet.

Here's the image of the top part of both notices - the rest is just how to pay:



Two more images from the council:





Here's the link to the relevant part of the parking rules for my council (my situation is on page 3 under "code 11"):

Parking rules

Here's the link to the consideration criteria for challenges:

Consideration of parking ticket challenges

I notice in that last document that it says:

QUOTE
Any PCN can be cancelled if the mitigation put forward by the motorist is deemed strong enough to warrant it. Cases should be considered objectively and discretion can be given where it is evident that the motorist made an honest attempt to park legally/correctly but made a genuine mistake in doing so, incurring the PCN in the process, or that the PCN was issued in circumstances beyond the motorist's reasonable control.


I was thinking that I should challenge on the basis that I am a resident and I made a genuine mistake. I am a new driver, haven't had my car or my residents parking permit very long. What does this forum think?

I have two weeks before the fine doubles, starting from the 26th of July.

Thanks!

This post has been edited by westylad071: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 13:54
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post Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 13:51
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stamfordman
post Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 14:21
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you can always ask for discretion but Westminster is unlikely to cancel the first one. If the car didn't move you can ask for the second to be cancelled as a continuous contravention.

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westylad071
post Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 22:02
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Just as an update, Westminster decided to cancel one PCN but not the other.

Bear in mind that both of these PCNs are for the same offence...

On one they say:

QUOTE
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN), issued as the Civil
Enforcement Officer (CEO) believed the vehicle to be parked without payment of the parking charge.
Your challenge against this PCN has been rejected because you must make a payment to park your
vehicle in a payment bay.
You state that you believed you were in a resident’s bay and had not checked the signage. I must advise
that it remains your responsibility, as the motorist, to check all signage around your vehicle before leaving
it unattended.
As you were parked in a payment bay without a valid payment to park, I am satisfied that the CEO
correctly served the PCN.

You have mentioned another PCN issued to your vehicle. Please be advised that all PCNs are dealt with
on an individual basis and you will receive correspondence regarding the other one in due course.


And on the other...:

QUOTE
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
I have carefully considered the points you have raised and reviewed the details of the case in full. I can
confirm that this PCN has been cancelled.
The PCN was issued as the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) believed the vehicle to be parked without
payment of the parking charge.
You state that you believed you were in a residents bay and just forgot to check the signage. After
reviewing your case and the details you have provided, I believe that you made a genuine error parking
your vehicle in the payment bay. On this occasion, I am able to use my discretion and cancel the PCN.

Please be advised that this decision does not set a precedent. It remains your responsibility to check all
signage around your vehicle before leaving it unattended.
Please be assured that you are no longer liable for this PCN.


This doesn't make a lot of sense to me but not I'm sure how/if I should fight it further. Any thoughts?
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DancingDad
post Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 22:18
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QUOTE
….and c) you actually have to read the sign for your bay to find out....


That is what you are battling, that you did not read the sign.
That they cancelled one is reflective of that they would likely lose one at adjudication anyway, on continuous contravention but matters not what reason they put on cancelling, that it was cancelled leaves one in play and nothing to hang a defence on.
Hate to say it but from here it looks like a good result, assuming they have re-offered the discount I'd grab the offer and pay.
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eshroom
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 09:36
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 22:18) *
QUOTE
….and c) you actually have to read the sign for your bay to find out....


That is what you are battling, that you did not read the sign.
That they cancelled one is reflective of that they would likely lose one at adjudication anyway, on continuous contravention but matters not what reason they put on cancelling, that it was cancelled leaves one in play and nothing to hang a defence on.
Hate to say it but from here it looks like a good result, assuming they have re-offered the discount I'd grab the offer and pay.


I do agree with DancindDad, however, given the reason offered for cancelling one PCN, I would send through a stage 1 complaint here: https://www.westminster.gov.uk/complaints thanking them for their discretion and recognising the "genuine error" but pointing out that as the car didn't move, the mistake you made applies to the other PCN too. Ask if they made a mistake by only recognising the "genuine error" in one of the PCNs and not applying their discretion to both.

The tone of your response is important as they are doing you a favour, but if the complaint lands in front of the right person, given the reason stated for their discretion, you may get lucky.
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westylad071
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 10:46
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I agree as well. I can't say otherwise than by the letter of the law I am in the wrong. I wouldn't have even bothered challenging it except that I saw wriggle room in their challenge consideration criteria. I will try making a formal complaint - worth a go anyway.
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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 11:16
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I agree with Dancing, you're better off paying at the discount.
You're actually in a bit of a sticky situation - on the one hand, if you make a complaint, by the time it gets dealt with the PCN will have doubled to the full £130 (or worse).

If you pay at the discount, Westminster will undoubtedly say that paying the Penalty is an admission of liability, and the matter is closed.


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hcandersen
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 11:18
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No it’s not.

You are in a legal process and your complaint will be disregarded.

You either pay the outstanding penalty or wait for the NTO which would be sent to the registered keeper.

Are you the registered keeper and are your DVLA details up to date?
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westylad071
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 15:18
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 12:18) *
You either pay the outstanding penalty or wait for the NTO which would be sent to the registered keeper.

Are you the registered keeper and are your DVLA details up to date?


Yes I am and yes they are.

As to the complaint - based on timelines it's likely (but not certain) that the complaint comes back before the deadline for discount elapses - Westminster restart the clock on the 14 days when they respond to your challenge.

This post has been edited by westylad071: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 15:19
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cp8759
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 15:21
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QUOTE (westylad071 @ Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 16:18) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 12:18) *
You either pay the outstanding penalty or wait for the NTO which would be sent to the registered keeper.

Are you the registered keeper and are your DVLA details up to date?


Yes I am and yes they are.

As to the complaint - based on timelines it's likely (but not certain) that the complaint comes back before the deadline for discount elapses - Westminster restart the clock on the 14 days when they respond to your challenge.

My advice would be to pay the discounted penalty promptly and forget about making a complaint, but it's up to you.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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hcandersen
post Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 16:07
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Complaints procedure

Stage 1

If you want to make a complaint about the service you've received from the council, you’ll need to tell us what you’re complaining about so that we can direct you to the right team.

When you make a complaint to the council it goes directly to the manager of the department that you’re complaining about. This means that problems can be resolved quickly.

We aim to reply within 10 working days and if we need longer we will let you know.


Save yourself the time and trouble and either wait for NTO or pay.
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westylad071
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 13:33
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Ok, I have now had both PCNs cancelled. Here's what happened for posterity (ie: anyone searching this forum to find answers, as I did originally):

I filed a complaint a few days after I got back the results of my two challenges (recap: Westminster restart the 14 day discount period after any challenge). Based on their estimates for complaint resolution time, whether the complaint would come back before the fine doubled was evens. Also, there is a lot of material both on the website and on the PCN document itself suggesting that the only way to resolve PCNs is to either making a formal challenge or paying. It seemed doubtful whether a complaint would sort anything (as many people on this thread noted).

Nothing came back from the complaint and I paid the £40 on the last day before it doubled.

Then later (to my surprise) my complaint was dealt with and I got a phone call to tell me that a manager was cancelling the other PCN too and would refund the fine I had already paid. She said she'd looked at it and couldn't understand why if I had had one complaint cancelled that the other one hand not been cancelled too, given it was effectively the same offense. She also told me that these two different responses were in fact given by the same person (!!! and within 5 minutes of each other). I'm a new driver so not very experienced with PCNs but this arbitrariness is incredible to me, particularly given that Westminster is typically one of the better run councils in London (and some googling suggests this is also true for parking services).

I posted a few choice OJ Simpson memes to the family whatsapp group in celebration. Thanks everyone for all your help, including all due doubt - this was indeed an unlikely outcome.

Here's the text of my complaint:

QUOTE
Your involvement: I am the complainant
Complaint details: Hello,

I received two penalty charge notices for the same single offence: accidental parking in a pay-to-park bay instead of a residents bay (as I left the car there for two days I got two PCNs).

I submitted a challenge to both of these on the grounds that I made an honest attempt to park legally and correctly but made a genuine mistake in doing so, incurring the penalty charge notice in the process. Your consideration policy document makes allowances for this scenario:

https://www.westminster.gov.uk/consideratio...cket-challenges

On one of my challenges this was kindly accepted on this grounds but on the other challenge it was rejected.

Here are the two ids:

- XXX (cancelled)
- YYY (upheld)

I understand that I made a mistake I just think that surely that if for one PCN the fact that I made an honest attempt to park legally but made a genuine mistake is accepted then it surely holds for the other PCN as well as they are both for the same offence.

Thanks!
westylad
mob number here
Action requested: I would like you to consider cancelling this PCN: YYY
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DancingDad
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 14:56
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That is a good result, well done.

Must admit to being a little surprised but the old adage of don't ask, don't get, comes to mind.
A few years back, Westminster was one of the most grasping of London councils, penalising anything that did not move.
But they changed their policy, tasking CEOs with moving people on rather then reaching for the hand held machine and being far more amenable to reasonable challenges.
We see far fewer PCNs from them then we used to, whether their parking problems are any better (or worse) cannot say but I do feel that other London councils ought to look at similar ideas.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 15:18
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stamfordman
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 14:59
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Indeed, well done - I think you bamboozled them.
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