PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Two PCNs (Code 21) for parking bay suspension - but the sign wasn't there! (IMAGES ATTACHED)
ia278
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 20:59
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 16 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,214



So I live on a road with permit free parking in Cambridge. As you can imagine, a road with permit free parking is quite popular, so our road is always packed.

I parked up outside #49 on Saturday afternoon (I live at #10), and didn't think anything else until today (Wednesday), when I noticed my car has got two tickets! There was a parking suspension for numbers #50-56 for Tues, Wed and Thurs.

But here's the thing. The sign definitely wasn't there when I parked (even though the council say "Signs will be placed on street at least six days before the suspension"). I would have to of squeezed past it after I pushed in my wing mirror (it's on pavement parking), and this definitely didn't happen. Adding to this, we've received no letters in advance (according to the council, "letters will be delivered to the neighbouring properties when the signs and notifications are placed").

Naturally, I'm appealing this. Could anyone be kind enough to suggest how I'd go about it?

Thanks!

This post has been edited by ia278: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 9)
Advertisement
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 20:59
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 14:23
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Post up the PCN and the council photos, also give us a link to the location on google street view.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ia278
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:14
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 16 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,214



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 15:23) *
Post up the PCN and the council photos, also give us a link to the location on google street view.


Street view here: https://bit.ly/2VUBhjo
Images here: https://imgur.com/a/kPFIPO9 (council images are timestamped)

I've ordered the images in the following way: TUES 15TH (council images x6), WED 16TH (council images x3), THURS 17TH (my images, showing no signage on the third day of the suspension), THURS 17TH-evening (images of another parking suspension in Cambridge, with both signs and cones up), PCN

I've looked at the TOCs, and found these quotes;

- “We will endeavour to place suspension signs and notifications on street furniture (i.e. lampposts) which is adjacent to or as close to the property or properties where available”
- “Signs will be placed on street at least six days before the suspension and cones will be dropped off on the day of the suspension”
- “Where a residential permit, pay & display, or free parking bay is being suspended, letters will be delivered to the neighbouring properties when the signs and notifications are placed” - NO LETTER WAS DELIVERED

Oh, and the small fact that I'm sure I'm parked outside #49...

Thanks for your help - I realise this is probably a massive dump of info smile.gif

This post has been edited by ia278: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:27
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 17:14
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



I am sceptical that the suspension is lawful. A designated parking bay can be suspended if there is an underlying Traffic Regulation Order that includes a power to suspend the bay. If there is no underlying TRO, there is no power to suspend anything and the suspension is unlawful and of no effect.

It is unlikely there is a TRO if the bays have no restrictions whatsoever, the City of Cambridge (civil enforcement area) (waiting restrictions and street parking places) Order 2013 https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-16-09-2014.pdf makes no mention at all of any sort of unrestricted bay, nor does it mention Ross Street at all as far as I can see (though I imagine the double yellow lines will be included in the restricted street plans associated to the order).

If there is no TRO, there are no designated parking bays, there's just some white paint on the road which has no legal significance. In these circumstances, to prohibit parking the council should make a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order under section 14(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, but then the contravention would be 02 - Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force and the signs would be different, and would include a notice confirming that a TTRO has been made, the name of the order and its effect.

So, because it is unlikely the suspension was lawful, I would contest this on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Of course, at the informal representations stage you're likely to get a pro-forma fob-off rejection but if there is no TRO, there's no way you can lose if you take it all the way.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ia278
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:16
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 16 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,214



That's brilliant, thanks a lot!

I'll put these in the appeal now. One more thing - do you think I should argue these tickets collectively, or individually? For example, I came across this statement in Cambridge documents;

"Vehicles that park on the notified suspensions will be served with a PCN. The CEO must make notes and should take photographs which show the position of the suspension sign in relation to the vehicle and confirm that the suspension was in force at the time."

However, the evidence for the second ticket (https://imgur.com/a/kPFIPO9, timestamped 16th Oct);

- doesn't show suspension signs (becuase of your earlier point)
- doesn't confirm that a suspension was in place at the time

Do you reckon arguing insufficient evidence in this case would work?

Thanks again - you've really helped!


P.S. The appeal can be a maximum of only 3000 characters. Is this normal?

This post has been edited by ia278: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:23
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 12:42
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (ia278 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:14) *
I've looked at the TOCs, and found these quotes;

- “We will endeavour to place suspension signs and notifications on street furniture (i.e. lampposts) which is adjacent to or as close to the property or properties where available”
- “Signs will be placed on street at least six days before the suspension and cones will be dropped off on the day of the suspension”
- “Where a residential permit, pay & display, or free parking bay is being suspended, letters will be delivered to the neighbouring properties when the signs and notifications are placed” - NO LETTER WAS DELIVERED

If you don't live on a permit street, where did you find these TOCs and why would they apply to you?


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ia278
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:03
Post #7


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 16 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,214



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 13:42) *
QUOTE (ia278 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 21:14) *
I've looked at the TOCs, and found these quotes;

- “We will endeavour to place suspension signs and notifications on street furniture (i.e. lampposts) which is adjacent to or as close to the property or properties where available”
- “Signs will be placed on street at least six days before the suspension and cones will be dropped off on the day of the suspension”
- “Where a residential permit, pay & display, or free parking bay is being suspended, letters will be delivered to the neighbouring properties when the signs and notifications are placed” - NO LETTER WAS DELIVERED

If you don't live on a permit street, where did you find these TOCs and why would they apply to you?


It's part of their suspension policy (https://ccc-live.storage.googleapis.com/upload/www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/residents/travel-roads-and-parking/CCC%20Parking%20Suspension%20Policy%202019.pdf?inline=true) - but apparently they have the ability to suspend free parking bays as well?

Surely that isn't right?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 20:34
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



They can suspend a free parking bay only in two ways:

1) If a free parking bay is designated in a TRO as a free parking bay, and the TRO includes a power to suspend the parking bay, then a normal suspension can be put in place

2) If (as is the case here) there are no legally designated bays, but just some meaningless white paint, parking can be suspended only by means of a TTRO as I explained earlier.

Here's a draft representation you can send, sod the 3000 character limit and just send them a letter in the post. Keep all italics formatting exactly as I've used it below.

------------

Dear Cambridgeshire County Council,

I note that the City of Cambridge (civil enforcement area) (waiting restrictions and street parking places) Order 2013 makes no mention at all of any sort of unrestricted bays, nor does it mention any designated parking places or bays in Ross Street. It appears that the unregulated bays at this location are therefore not supported by a Traffic Regulation Order, as such the council has no power to suspend parking because the road is simply unrestricted, notwithstanding the presence of advisory parking bay markings.

In these circumstances in order to restrict parking the council must make a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order under section 14(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, it must also comply with the duties specified at regulation 3 of The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992, it is self-evident that that has not happened in this instance.

Had a TTRO been made, the contravention would have been "02 - Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force" and the signs would include a notice confirming that a TTRO has been made, the name of the order and its effect.

In the absence of either a permanent or a temporary traffic order, there were no lawful restrictions in place and it follows that the alleged contravention could not have occurred.

Even if there had been a lawful parking suspension in force (which is denied), the published suspension policy asserts as follows:

- “We will endeavour to place suspension signs and notifications on street furniture (i.e. lampposts) which is adjacent to or as close to the property or properties where available
- “Signs will be placed on street at least six days before the suspension and cones will be dropped off on the day of the suspension
- “Where a residential permit, pay & display, or free parking bay is being suspended, letters will be delivered to the neighbouring properties when the signs and notifications are placed

No signs were present when I parked my vehicle on Saturday, therefore the council has failed to comply with its own requirement to place signs six days in advance, and in any case no letter was delivered to my property.

For all these reasons, the alleged contravention did not occur.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ia278
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:03
Post #9


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 6
Joined: 16 Oct 2019
Member No.: 106,214



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 21:34) *
They can suspend a free parking bay only in two ways:

1) If a free parking bay is designated in a TRO as a free parking bay, and the TRO includes a power to suspend the parking bay, then a normal suspension can be put in place

2) If (as is the case here) there are no legally designated bays, but just some meaningless white paint, parking can be suspended only by means of a TTRO as I explained earlier.

Here's a draft representation you can send, sod the 3000 character limit and just send them a letter in the post. Keep all italics formatting exactly as I've used it below.

------------

Dear Cambridgeshire County Council,

I note that the City of Cambridge (civil enforcement area) (waiting restrictions and street parking places) Order 2013 makes no mention at all of any sort of unrestricted bays, nor does it mention any designated parking places or bays in Ross Street. It appears that the unregulated bays at this location are therefore not supported by a Traffic Regulation Order, as such the council has no power to suspend parking because the road is simply unrestricted, notwithstanding the presence of advisory parking bay markings.

In these circumstances in order to restrict parking the council must make a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order under section 14(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, it must also comply with the duties specified at regulation 3 of The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992, it is self-evident that that has not happened in this instance.

Had a TTRO been made, the contravention would have been "02 - Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force" and the signs would include a notice confirming that a TTRO has been made, the name of the order and its effect.

In the absence of either a permanent or a temporary traffic order, there were no lawful restrictions in place and it follows that the alleged contravention could not have occurred.

Even if there had been a lawful parking suspension in force (which is denied), the published suspension policy asserts as follows:

- “We will endeavour to place suspension signs and notifications on street furniture (i.e. lampposts) which is adjacent to or as close to the property or properties where available
- “Signs will be placed on street at least six days before the suspension and cones will be dropped off on the day of the suspension
- “Where a residential permit, pay & display, or free parking bay is being suspended, letters will be delivered to the neighbouring properties when the signs and notifications are placed

No signs were present when I parked my vehicle on Saturday, therefore the council has failed to comply with its own requirement to place signs six days in advance, and in any case no letter was delivered to my property.

For all these reasons, the alleged contravention did not occur.


Thank you so much! I've just sent the appeal off now - fingers crossed, and I'll update this once I get a reply.

Once again - thank you!

This post has been edited by ia278: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 10:04
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:49
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,063
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



There are no parking places, therefore none may be suspended.

The only traffic signs are those at the entrance to the street and these convey the following meaning:

Vehicles may be parked partially on the verge or footway during the period indicated



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

Items 14 and 15 in the Part 2 sign table apply.

1. There is a TRO which creates parking places.
In which case they have not been marked as required by traffic signs and therefore have no effect.

2. There isn't a TRO.
As for 1, but with bells on.

The contravention did not occur because there is no provision for an authority to suspend in this manner anything other than a parking place(s).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 06:33
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here