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help with nto please
pottsygsxr
post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 11:19
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hi guys.

I`m filling my nto for parking in a disabled bay. I genuinely didn`t think that i was in a disabled bay and the road markings are a bit confusing. Judging by the pictures can anyone be of any help. I am contesting it cos they are confusing but just wondered what other peoples thought were or ideas. thanks
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post Sun, 12 Oct 2014 - 11:19
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DancingDad
post Sun, 19 Oct 2014 - 21:27
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No, electronic copies generated from a database is what they will have. And no guarantee that the same misprint will occur.
Hence vital that you keep your original and why they would have been a bit bemused and took a flying guess at what was meant.

My fault as much as anyone's for not spelling out the error in the challenge more clearly.

However, TPT form.
Decide whether phone or personal hearing, both are better then relying on postal as with those the adjudicator can make a judgement on your credibility.
Important with points like bay markings confused or misled.
I would recommend personal, they are relatively informal and nothing to be scared of. It isn't the high court with wigs and gowns.

Tick boxes Contravention did not Occur, Procedural Impropriety and Penalty exceeds.

Dear Sirs.
I parked in what I thought was a normal parking bay with two Disabled Bays in front of my vehicle.

Contravention Did Not Occur.
I parked where it was not clear that it was a disabled bay. Markings were very faded, invisible and although I could see the disabled legend on the road, I assumed that this applied to the dark tarmac and had no information to believe different.
Without clear markings, there can be no contravention.

Procedural Impropriety.
The Notice to Owner must amongst other things state the contravention. The General Regulations 2007 S19 applies. The NTO fails to advise of the grounds that a CEO believed existed. There is no information regarding what should have been displayed and parking in a Disabled Bay is not automatically unlawful.
In that respect the contravention cited is unclear and fails to impart the information required.

Procedural Impropriety
In not following standard codes that are prescribed in both PATROL listings and Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Guidelines on Levels of Charges) (England) Order 2007 the enforcement authority have failed to have regard to guidance set by the Secretary of State and that they have agreed to in signing up to the PATROL system. Failing to have regard means that they have failed in a statutory duty and as such is a Procedural Impropriety.

The Penalty Exceeds the Amount Due.
Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Guidelines on Levels of Charges) (England) Order 2007 enables councils to set penalties against prescribed levels and standard wording. Failing to use standard wording removes the authority to use Higher Level Penalties, thus the penalty exceeds the amount due.

Procedural Impropriety.
In the Notice of Rejection, the council simply cited why the PCN was served, ignoring that I had pointed out the confusion with worn and illegible markings coupled with an obvious "marked " area of dark tarmac that I assumed was the disabled bay.
They failed to consider that the wording on the NTO was deficient, choosing that I was somehow claiming that I lacked knowledge of disabled bays and citing the relevant parts of the Highway code.
In closing my formal challenge I specifically asked for mitigation to be considered if nothing else.
The Appeals Regulations 2007 S5(2) imposes a duty on enforcement authorities to consider any representation made against a Notice to Owner.
I do not believe that any consideration was carried out beyond a cursory look at the PCN contravention and CEO notes. There is no evidence within the Notice of Rejection that any of my points has been considered. This includes not considering mitigation and the exercise of discretion.
I accept that mitigation offered may not be compelling and that discretion is solely for the enforcement authority but this not excuse them from the duty to consider.
Hugs and kisses

See what others think
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pottsygsxr
post Mon, 20 Oct 2014 - 08:45
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Thats great thanks dancingdad!! Ill be bck on later on this aft and will see what else is added but to me it looks like a winner!! It will mean travelling to newcastle but will hopefully be worth it. I`ll have a proper read after. Thanks again for your help. mucha appreciated.
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pottsygsxr
post Mon, 20 Oct 2014 - 18:16
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Thanks for that dancingdad. I will get that typed up exactly as you have put it and attach it to the TPT and get it sent off. I will just opt for a face to face as you have suggested and see how it goes there. I think I will print out the photos that I took as well to take along with me. Do you have any other tips that I should possibly say when there?
thank you.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 20 Oct 2014 - 20:10
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Put a COPY of your NTO, first page, with the appeal. Highlight with a ring, not across, the contravention. (If they scan or photocopy the highlight comes out as black so do not obscure what you are showing.)

Once you get a date back from TPT, come back and we can check for anything else and make plans for hearing itself.
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pottsygsxr
post Mon, 20 Oct 2014 - 21:18
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Thanks for that. I will hopefully get it all done tomorrow. I will photocopy the nto and circle EXACTLY around the .." who had reason to believe that the following contravention had occurres and a penalty charge was payable"....section. Obviously i will make sure the .."40 parked in a designated disabled persons parking place without displaying a valid disabled " is exactly marked too.

Hope that makes sense.
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pottsygsxr
post Thu, 23 Oct 2014 - 17:43
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Just a quick update for those involved.

Dear Mr Potts,
Michael Potts v North Yorkshire County Council (with Scarborough)
YN02807663
Thank you for your completed Notice of Appeal. Your case has been registered and the
Council have been notified.
If the Council choose to contest the case, they will send written representations and supporting
evidence to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, with a copy to you. You should expect to receive this
on or around 13 November 2014.
In addition to the items already sent, if there is any other information you wish the Adjudicator
to consider please ensure it is received here by 20 November 2014. The Adjudicator is an
independent solicitor or barrister appointed to decide cases referred to this Tribunal.
You indicated a preference for an oral hearing. We will contact you once the council have sent
their evidence to arrange this.
I am the Appeals Coordinator who will be dealing with your case. If you have any questions
please do not hesitate to contact me on the above telephone number.
Yours sincerely

I filled in the application so its registered. I also added all the photos that I had taken and took a scan of the front page of the NTO and highlighted the part where it fails to notify of the exact contravention.
I will keep you posted when I receive a date back to the tribunal....hope all looks fine so far oh and I have until the 20th nov to add anything else to the case.

thanks for all your help everyone.
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pottsygsxr
post Mon, 17 Nov 2014 - 20:16
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Hi guys.

latest update. got an email from the tribunal saying "I have received a bundle of evidence and submissions from the Council in relation to your case;
a copy should have been sent to you by the Council....etc. I will receive the info in a day or two hopefuly and see what they are replying with and will post up to see what you think.

I`m not quite sure what "a bundle" of evidence is but will wait and see.!!

Just a thought but if I say that they haven`t displayed correctly on the NTO about what I should have displayed will they not just say that it was displayed on the parking ticket when I first got it??


thanks, Michael
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DancingDad
post Mon, 17 Nov 2014 - 22:58
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Bundle of evidence is exactly that, maybe 50 or 60 pages that should include copies of the PCN and NTO, CEO notes, relevant photos, PCN history (dates of notices) what you sent to them, Traffic Order. Let us know when you get it.

Contravention on PCN and NTO.
There is an difference between who is liable and who deals with either the PCN and NTO.
PCN is the driver's responsibility and they are expected to pay or challenge.
After 28 days, the liability shifts to the owner via the NTO. It is now nothing to do with the driver and there is no assumption that the owner and driver will be the same person.
The owner may have no knowledge of the PCN. So the NTO has to show exactly what the contravention is.
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pottsygsxr
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 13:46
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Thanks for that dancing dad.. Envelope had arrived today so when I'm home I'll see what's in it. Is there anything specific I should put up on here?
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pottsygsxr
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 17:12
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well I have the case summary the council have sent. Is there anything specific you need to see?? Hope the photbucket picture works. link below


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Bluedart
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 17:17
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QUOTE (pottsygsxr @ Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 17:12) *
well I have the case summary the council have sent. Is there anything specific you need to see?? Hope the photbucket picture works. link below




Shows how those replying on Heron v Parking adjudicator can apply the wrong interpretation.


--------------------
Peter
What I'd like to see police/local authorities do is deal with important issues and not these sorts of victimless crimes when society is riddled with problems.

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

'The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.' - Albert Einstein
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pottsygsxr
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 17:22
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how do you mean?? have they got it wrong??
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Bluedart
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 17:58
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QUOTE (pottsygsxr @ Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 17:22) *
how do you mean?? have they got it wrong??


As I understand it, they have interpreted the Heron case to suit themselves.

Read some of the comments here.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...64025&st=10


--------------------
Peter
What I'd like to see police/local authorities do is deal with important issues and not these sorts of victimless crimes when society is riddled with problems.

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

'The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.' - Albert Einstein
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pottsygsxr
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 18:16
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...so what`s everyones opinion?? do you think i`m scuppered then??
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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 18:50
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We've still not seen their photos.

Your challenge and reps both challenged the clarity of the lines (although in your challenge you acknowledged that you knew that you were in a parking place but not a disabled one!) and IMO the authority are obliged to present evidence to support their statements in the NOR. So, where are they?
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pottsygsxr
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 18:55
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i have them here. If you can give me ten mins or so i`ll copy them for you.....they have sent basically all the correspondence between us and all evidence ...bit too much to take a icture of everything really?? i`ll post their pics up.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 19:15
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All I want is evidence which supports their claim that the parking place was sufficiently well signed, a simple statement on their part that it's clear is not sufficient in these circumstances.
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pottsygsxr
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 19:25
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hope these are of some help...i`m sure there may be a link to their online ones near the beginnning of the thread??...anyways hope these will do for the moment
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 19:28
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If they quote the Heron case you have them on the back foot!! The bays are not clearly deliniated --end of. Having a sign means sod all if you can't determine the bays involved via road markings.

Other members may be better positioned to offer advice on the Councils photos on their website. None of them are timed or dated which, to me, makes them inadmissible as evidence.

Mick
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pottsygsxr
post Tue, 18 Nov 2014 - 19:44
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the pics do have the time and dates ...bit hard to see from the photos... you can see some of them just...on the edge
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