PCN and towed - unrestricted street being cleaned Options

[HughC]

Hi guys

I parked my car on an unrestricted street as it was having some work done at a nearby garage which doesn’t have much forecourt space. Car has serious problems so left on street for a while. Miles from where I live and it’s old and battered and I had no cause to check up on it.

I went to check the other day and it had been moved to an adjacent street. There was a PCN on the windscreen:



I wrote to them asking why I had a PCN on an unrestricted street. I didn’t mention the towing. There is no mention of the towing on the PCN and the road specified on the PCN is where the car was moved FROM, not where I found it.

I received the following response:

 00124101.pdf ( 708.9K ) Number of downloads: 71


As I didn’t have any reason to be in the area I never would have seen the signs about the temporary restrictions.

I’d be grateful for any thoughts on this...

This post has been edited by HughC: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 09:25

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[Incandescent]

Car has serious problems so left on street for a while. Miles from where I live and it’s old and battered and I had no cause to check up on it.

So how long is "a while" ? Presumably taxed and insured if it is on the street ?

It is very unwise to leave vehicles on the street for extended periods in London, as parking suspensions are very frequent. This frequency is related to the heavy use of streets for parking, as so much housing is old with no off-street parking. I note from their letter that they do recognise breakdowns etc, an invite you to submit documents, but I don't think this applies in your case. My personal view is you don't have a leg to stand on, and would do better paying the discounted amount. However see what the others say.

[stamfordman]

As noted they say:

We will reconsider your case if you send us a breakdown company report, a receipt/invoice for parts, a receipt/invoice for removal or a receipt/invoice for repair.

Did you get some work done on 'serious' problems - if so i would send them invoices etc from garage and see what happens.

[HughC]

Thanks Incandescent - yes it’s taxed and insured, there is a major problem with the injector pump which the garage was investigating - they could get it to run briefly and roughly to move but I am in the process of sourcing a new pump etc etc - basically it was there for a few weeks.



Thanks Stamfordman - I actually don’t have an invoice because they couldn’t fix the problem. Also I am a bit wary of ‘we will reconsider’ - it doesn’t fill me with hope. I rather thought the business of the towing and the basic fact that I wasn’t around to see the signs would hold more water. Surely there’s no legal requirement to check your car at certain intervals if it’s parked on an unrestricted street.

[hcandersen]

basically it was there for a few weeks.


If as simple as this, then pay the discount and move on.

Your account is confusing. If the garage had the vehicle in their care for 'investigation', then there would be no reason for it to be on the street unless the garage uses the street as an annex to their workshop space and moves vehicles there awaiting labour/parts. But you say they couldn't fix the problem, so it wasn't awaiting anything. And why a garage 'miles from where you live'.

Anyway, back to the essentials:
Who actually parked the car at the location where the PCN was issued?
You say 'you parked it' but how could you if the garage had yet to inspect? And as you lives miles away, they didn't phone you, tell you it needed a part and then you travel miles simply to move it from their forecourt.

OP, pl, pl, forget about your questions and deal with ours.

Who parked the car and what were the exact circumstances? What you've posted so far is contradictory.

Pl don't gve us the answers you think might help, just tell us precisely what occurred.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 10:33

[HughC]

your account is confusing. If the garage had the vehicle in their care for 'investigation', then there would be no reason for it to be on the street unless the garage uses the street as an annex to their workshop space and moves vehicles there awaiting labour/parts. But you say they couldn't fix the problem, so it wasn't awaiting anything. And why a garage 'miles from where you live'.

As I said, they don’t have room on their forecourt so they moved the car to the street while waiting for parts. Miles from where I live because there doesn’t happen to be a specialist diesel garage at the end of my street.

Anyway, back to the essentials:
Who actually parked the car at the location where the PCN was issued?
You say 'you parked it' but how could you if the garage had yet to inspect? And as you lives miles away, they didn't phone you, tell you it needed a part and then you travel miles simply to move it from their forecourt.

The garage moved it to the street, you’re right. They were trying various fixes involving replacement parts, each of which had to be delivered specially.

Who parked the car and what were the exact circumstances? What you've posted so far is contradictory.

Gave car to garage to investigate. They moved it into the street. Ultimately their efforts to avoid full replacement of injector pump failed so I was left to think of what to do with the car. Thought best to sell, left it on street in the meantime.

This post has been edited by HughC: Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 10:47

[cp8759]

To be honest if the car was left for weeks, I'd pay the discount.

[hcandersen]

So:
You did not park or cause the vehicle to be parked, this was someone from the garage.
The garage left the vehicle in an unrestricted length of street.
You live miles away and after they contacted you, you spent time looking at various options e.g repair, sale etc.
The garage did not alert you to the introduction of temporary parking restrictions.
A PCN was issued.


What I don't understand is:
Thought best to sell,
I went to check the other day
Why the car was anywhere miles away from where you lived in the first place.
and it’s old and battered, to which you respond to my question by saying that there wasn't a specialist repairer at the end of your street - presumably one specialising in cars that are 'old and battered'

If the car is such low value then it hardly suggests a specialist repairer.
Why did you check, you live miles away.

We've still not got the full story, why I don't know.
At present you could have an arguable case for contravention did not occur and/or exercise of discretion but this could unravel if there are parts of the story yet untold which undermine your credibility.

Your money, your choice. Pay and move on or tell us the full story, warts and all, and challenge us to develop a possible argument.

[Incandescent]

So:
You did not park or cause the vehicle to be parked, this was someone from the garage.
The garage left the vehicle in an unrestricted length of street.
You live miles away and after they contacted you, you spent time looking at various options e.g repair, sale etc.
The garage did not alert you to the introduction of temporary parking restrictions.
A PCN was issued.


What I don't understand is:
Thought best to sell,
I went to check the other day
Why the car was anywhere miles away from where you lived in the first place.
and it’s old and battered, to which you respond to my question by saying that there wasn't a specialist repairer at the end of your street - presumably one specialising in cars that are 'old and battered'

If the car is such low value then it hardly suggests a specialist repairer.
Why did you check, you live miles away.

We've still not got the full story, why I don't know.
At present you could have an arguable case for contravention did not occur and/or exercise of discretion but this could unravel if there are parts of the story yet untold which undermine your credibility.

Your money, your choice. Pay and move on or tell us the full story, warts and all, and challenge us to develop a possible argument.

It seems to me most of the story is in #6 : -

Gave car to garage to investigate. They moved it into the street. Ultimately their efforts to avoid full replacement of injector pump failed so I was left to think of what to do with the car. Thought best to sell, left it on street in the meantime.
What we don't know is how long it remained on-street after the garage advised OP it was irreparable.

[hcandersen]

I'll wait for the OP to fill in the gaps.......

[Incandescent]

I'll wait for the OP to fill in the gaps.......

Agree.

But I can't see any win at all here. OP is best coughing-up or maybe contacting Sheila at : -

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

[hcandersen]

It's a PCN, that's all. No need for Sheila.

[HughC]

What I don't understand is:
Thought best to sell,
I went to check the other day
Why the car was anywhere miles away from where you lived in the first place.
and it’s old and battered, to which you respond to my question by saying that there wasn't a specialist repairer at the end of your street - presumably one specialising in cars that are 'old and battered'

If the car is such low value then it hardly suggests a specialist repairer.
Why did you check, you live miles away.

A specialist diesel injector repair shop, recommended by a friend who has used them before. Really I don’t understand why this is a cause of such suspicion. Yes it’s old and battered but still worth having a go at repairing. And I checked because I thought it was about time, time flies and it had been weeks since I saw it.

Anyway sounds pretty hopeless, looks like I will be coughing up.

[hcandersen]

It's not suspicion, it's just that we know what matters as regards a defence and, with respect, you don't.

And I like the full story because matters to which you might attach no significance may in fact be key.

You started us off looking in the wrong direction because you did not park the car at the location of the contravention - something which is pretty fundamental.

If you actually gave it into the care of the garage, then they had a duty of care towards it, however battered, but if they gave you weeks of notice that they'd put it on the road because there was nothing they could do, then this would be a factor.

And we know nothing of the above.

Oh well, pay if you will.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 20:18

[HughC]

Ok thanks for that, I hope I have made it a bit clearer now.

I have successfully defended myself in court three times against private parking companies, so I fancy I am not a total muppet on this topic (although I appreciate PPCs and the council are very different t matters).

I appreciate that this could be pinned on the garage but for a number of reasons I don’t want to go down that road and thought there might be more scope for a challenge based on the towing, the nature of the temporary restrictions, etc

This post has been edited by HughC: Sun, 16 Jun 2019 - 12:37

[cp8759]

Ok thanks for that, I hope I have made it a bit clearer now.

I have successfully defended myself in court three times against private parking companies, so I fancy I am not a total muppet on this topic (although I appreciate PPCs and the council are very different t matters).

I appreciate that this could be pinned on the garage but for a number of reasons I don’t want to go down that road and thought there might be more scope for a challenge based on the towing, the nature of the temporary restrictions, etc

Well if you were to show us the council's evidential pictures we'd be able to check - for example if they used a TTRO there's several hoops they have to jump through - but at the moment we're flying blind.

[HughC]

I attached a pdf of the council’s response to my appeal in full in my first post. Is that not showing up?

[hcandersen]

As you didn't put the car at the location but do not want to claim this(something you knew from the start and which has occupied countless posts in discovering) - you cannot claim this if, as here, you know who did but do not supply details - then you have no legitimate basis for claiming a breakdown. After all, evidentially it was moved into the location so had sufficient motive power to move out again!

Which leaves you with reps based on there not being a Temp Traffic Order which established the restriction allegedly contravened. IMO you cannot start looking at where the TTO was displayed, which is relevant in most cases, because you were not there and it made not a jot of difference, and IMO an adjudicator would agree.

But fundamentally the TTO must have created the restriction. So what you can do is to ask them for this as it(the detail) is not evident from the photos - not only not to you but also NOT to whoever considered your challenge.

Whether you'd get a response before a NTO, who knows?

But bearing in mind that their evidence is incomplete as regards the order, then perhaps they would re-offer the discount even after unsuccessful reps.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 17 Jun 2019 - 08:58

[cp8759]

I attached a pdf of the council’s response to my appeal in full in my first post. Is that not showing up?

You need to get the photos from the council website and post them up, the images in the PDF are far too small to read. And there are likely to be more photos than that anyway. Put them on an external site like imgur.com as you won't have space on here.