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PCN ISSUE TIME LIMIT ON LEASED VEHICLE, CONTRAVENTION 33B USING A ROUTE RESTRICTED TO CERTAIN VEHICLES BUSES
Sam79
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:11
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[attachment=64126:20190518..._resized.jpg]Hello all

I have got a Penalty Charge notice from Harrow Council London. date of notice 07/05/19 but date of alleged contravention 26/03/16 over 3 years ago !!!

CONTRAVENTION 33B USING A ROUTE RESTRICTED TO CERTAIN VEHICLES BUSES ONLY

My question is this is a leased vehicle now returned to the lease company, also 3 years after the contravention took place have i got a defence is so what should i say ?

Thanks


[attachment=64125:20190518..._resized.jpg]

This post has been edited by Sam79: Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:31
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post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:11
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cp8759
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 09:00
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QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 01:35) *
the file is too large too upload can you suggest what i can do its on pdf

It's 2019, you'll struggle to find a file that is too large for the internet. Try dropbox, google drive or similar. Alternatively, just take a picture and upload it to imgur.com or similar.


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Sam79
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 15:04
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sorry meant to upload on here

have put it on wetransfer use below link pls

https://we.tl/t-NrZ6HVEQJw
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cp8759
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 15:22
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Right, so the Charge Certificate was issued on 26 May 2016, and the Order for Recovery was not issued until 20 February 2019, some 2 years and 9 months later. This is a clear-cut case of procedural unfairness, at common law an enforcement authority cannot delay matters for years at a time and then seek to resume enforcement, see Paul Richard David v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) here http://bit.ly/2FcqWXP

Have you registered the appeal on the tribunal website? I suspect the council won't contest it.


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Sam79
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 15:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:22) *
Right, so the Charge Certificate was issued on 26 May 2016, and the Order for Recovery was not issued until 20 February 2019, some 2 years and 9 months later. This is a clear-cut case of procedural unfairness, at common law an enforcement authority cannot delay matters for years at a time and then seek to resume enforcement, see Paul Richard David v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) here http://bit.ly/2FcqWXP

Have you registered the appeal on the tribunal website? I suspect the council won't contest it.


yeah i registered it with the above advice hearing is on 22nd july 2019

should i include your above comments and the lease companies email and log ?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 15:44
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:22) *
Right, so the Charge Certificate was issued on 26 May 2016, and the Order for Recovery was not issued until 20 February 2019, some 2 years and 9 months later. This is a clear-cut case of procedural unfairness, at common law an enforcement authority cannot delay matters for years at a time and then seek to resume enforcement, see Paul Richard David v The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (1970198981, 30 March 1998) here http://bit.ly/2FcqWXP

Have you registered the appeal on the tribunal website? I suspect the council won't contest it.


a recent case we won citing that reference on the same subject of delay

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AtBHPhdJdppVqlhYT4EJPMdsNL26


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cp8759
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 20:42
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QUOTE (Sam79 @ Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 16:36) *
should i include your above comments and the lease companies email and log ?

Once thing at a time, has the council uploaded its evidence yet?


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Sam79
post Fri, 5 Jul 2019 - 21:49
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no evidence uploaded by council yet
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 09:54
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What's the time and date of the first email you got from the tribunal, notifying you that the appeal had been registered?


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Sam79
post Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 11:57
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23rd june 2019 23.00hrs
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 19:25
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Excellent, the tribunal rules provide that the council must provide certain evidence (such as a copy of the PCN, your representations and the Notice of Rejection) within 7 days of being notified of the appeal, even assuming it took the tribunal a couple of days to notify the council, it seems likely they've missed the 7 day deadline.


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Sam79
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 19:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 6 Jul 2019 - 20:25) *
Excellent, the tribunal rules provide that the council must provide certain evidence (such as a copy of the PCN, your representations and the Notice of Rejection) within 7 days of being notified of the appeal, even assuming it took the tribunal a couple of days to notify the council, it seems likely they've missed the 7 day deadline.


Hello

Just checked again but still no evidence uploaded from what i can see

What should i do next ?
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 19:54
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If the OP's lease was for 3 years can transfer of liability occur?


I thought liability for PCNs could be transferred where the contravention occurs at a time when the vehicle is the subject of a vehicle hire agreement of less than 6 months.


Or have I missed something?

Mick
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cp8759
post Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 19:54
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Well they've committed a further procedural impropriety by not uploading the evidence in time. Maybe they won't contest, in which case you don't need to do anything. If they contest, they will upload their evidence (though of course it will be late), and the tribunal will give you a deadline to submit your appeal wording.


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Sam79
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 01:09
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 9 Jul 2019 - 20:54) *
Well they've committed a further procedural impropriety by not uploading the evidence in time. Maybe they won't contest, in which case you don't need to do anything. If they contest, they will upload their evidence (though of course it will be late), and the tribunal will give you a deadline to submit your appeal wording.


The letter from the London Tribunals states

my appeal received on 23rd June 2019

case will come into list for decision 22nd july 2019

All evidence should be received by no later than 17th July 2019

i should receive a copy of the enforcement authority's evidence directly from them at least three days before the date the case comes into list.

I'm a bit confused here does this still mean the council are late ? If they are late does their action get struck off or is their evidence still allowed? If allowed will i be given extra time to appeal ?
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cp8759
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 10:34
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QUOTE (Sam79 @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 02:09) *
All evidence should be received by no later than 17th July 2019

i should receive a copy of the enforcement authority's evidence directly from them at least three days before the date the case comes into list.

I'm a bit confused here does this still mean the council are late ? If they are late does their action get struck off or is their evidence still allowed? If allowed will i be given extra time to appeal ?

Yes the council are late, the relevant rule is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/12...gulation/4/made

(2) Upon receipt of a copy of a notice of appeal sent under this regulation, the local authority shall within 7 days deliver to the proper officer a copy of—

(a) the original representations;
(b) a copy of the relevant charge notice (if any); and
(с) a copy of the notice served under section 71(6) of, or (as the case may be) paragraph 2(7) of Schedule 6 to, the Act.


It doesn't mean the council's case will automatically be struck out, but it's more ammunition to be used against them. The letter from London Tribunals is just a generic template, it does not alter the legal position.


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Sam79
post Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 10:52
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 11:34) *
QUOTE (Sam79 @ Wed, 10 Jul 2019 - 02:09) *
All evidence should be received by no later than 17th July 2019

i should receive a copy of the enforcement authority's evidence directly from them at least three days before the date the case comes into list.

I'm a bit confused here does this still mean the council are late ? If they are late does their action get struck off or is their evidence still allowed? If allowed will i be given extra time to appeal ?

Yes the council are late, the relevant rule is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1993/12...gulation/4/made

(2) Upon receipt of a copy of a notice of appeal sent under this regulation, the local authority shall within 7 days deliver to the proper officer a copy of—

(a) the original representations;
(b) a copy of the relevant charge notice (if any); and
(с) a copy of the notice served under section 71(6) of, or (as the case may be) paragraph 2(7) of Schedule 6 to, the Act.


It doesn't mean the council's case will automatically be struck out, but it's more ammunition to be used against them. The letter from London Tribunals is just a generic template, it does not alter the legal position.



thanks
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Sam79
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 00:43
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THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP

The council have said they are not going to contend the case

If anyone needs a discount on car parts especially external parts contact me on sach@svacarparts.co.uk i would like to give anyone helping fellow motorists a discount and those who have helped me on here let me know any parts will be near cost price
(hope its ok for me to offer this as a thank you )
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Incandescent
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 08:10
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Very well done ! The council were trying it on, as usual, as most people would have just coughed-up.
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