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PCN sent to old address...worth sending OOT statutory declaration?
neverendingsumme...
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 20:43
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Hello- new user here.

The other day I got the shock of my life when I answered the door- 2 high court enforcement officers were there, demanding £513 from me, for a PCN dating back around 6 months ago.

PCN was for driving in a bus lane- I was not the driver, my husband had the car on that particular day.

In a nutshell- we moved house autumn 2017, set up a Royal Mail redirection for 6 months (now wish it had been for 12 months), I updated my driving licence with new address but completely forgot about the logbook.

In May this year, I renewed the road tax and car insurance plus realised I had to update the logbook so sent that off.

The PCN occurred 2 weeks before this, so all correspondance has been going to our old address.

Unfortunately, the redirection expired around 2 weeks before the PCN occurred.

The first I knew of the PCN was when the bailiffs knocked on my door.

They could not show me any paperwork relating to the PCN, except tell me the road it occurred in; I was told that it had to be paid immediately.

I paid the entire amount there and then on my credit card.

My 8 week old baby was in my arms, screaming most of the time, I had had about 3 hours sleep the previous night, nobody else was at home and I just wanted to get them to leave ASAP.

I now regret paying it but at the time felt rather intimidated and most definitely caught at a bad time.

I've spoken with the council who issued the PCN and also with the TEC.

I've got the OOT declaration form- my question is: is there any point sending it off? is there any possibility I can get some of the bailiff fees returned...?

This week I've got an appointment at my local county court to get my signature witnessed. I figure I should at least send it off if I stand some chance.

Do I just chalk this up experience and swallow the fact it's cost me over 500 quid?

Honestly, I have never had an experience like this before or been face to face with high court enforcement/bailiffs.

Any advice/opinions or recent similar experiences gratefully received.

Thank you








Sorry I think this needs to go in the Council parking tickets etc queries forum

Will try to get it moved
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post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 20:43
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SchoolRunMum
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 20:45
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This needs moving to the council tickets forum. This is the wrong place.

I think you need to hit 'report' on your own post and ask for it to be moved.

QUOTE
I paid the entire amount there and then on my credit card.

OMG.
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mdann52
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 21:23
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Unfortunately, not sending the V5C off is a common mistake we see on here.

I don't think there's any harm in sending off the OOT, however expect it to be objected to by the council. From there, it will either need a hearing on papers (£100) or a court hearing (£200+) to get the matter overturned, then with no guarantee of success in this case. I don't think there is any harm sending the OOT in - you may well find the council have a sympathetic day and allow it to let you pay at the standard rate, however this is not guaranteed. Others will advise if there's any better course of action however.

It is the keeper who is liable for council PNCs, so the drivers identity is immaterial here.
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neverendingsumme...
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 21:27
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 21:45) *
This needs moving to the council tickets forum. This is the wrong place.

I think you need to hit 'report' on your own post and ask for it to be moved.

Yes have reported, thanks

QUOTE
I paid the entire amount there and then on my credit card.

OMG.


OMG indeed- I really wish I hadn't paid it and feel like an idiot, after speaking with the council a bit later they seemed to imply that I shouldn't have.
Definitely wasn't firing on all cylinders that day...!
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neverendingsumme...
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 21:37
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QUOTE (mdann52 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:23) *
Unfortunately, not sending the V5C off is a common mistake we see on here.

I don't think there's any harm in sending off the OOT, however expect it to be objected to by the council. From there, it will either need a hearing on papers (£100) or a court hearing (£200+) to get the matter overturned, then with no guarantee of success in this case. I don't think there is any harm sending the OOT in - you may well find the council have a sympathetic day and allow it to let you pay at the standard rate, however this is not guaranteed. Others will advise if there's any better course of action however.

It is the keeper who is liable for council PNCs, so the drivers identity is immaterial here.



Thank you for this information.

I am going to send it off, but really wondering whether there is much chance of me recouping any of the £513, so wanted to post on here and get some idea from others who may have gone through similar.

Ok so it sounds like I may have to pay out more to get it overturned...on a tight budget due to maternity leave so that's why I wondered whether I should just suck it up.

The bit about my husband- it more that I was trying to work out where/what I was doing on that particular day several months ago as I could not recall any speed cameras/red lights jumped/obvious traffic violation that I had committed!

Apologie if this next question makes me sounds incredibly stupid- after paying the full amount asked of me, have I actually paid the PCN? or just the bailiff fees??
On the day I thought I had paid the PCN as well but now not so sure.

I have never dealt with anything like this before in my life, so have lots of questions and have been googling like mad over the past few days.
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Neil B
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 21:52
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QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:37) *
I am going to send it off,

Having paid, there is no rush, no deadline, so you have time to get it right with our help.

You gave some specific, helpful facts, around unfortunate timing, in your opening post.
Now give us some actual dates.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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mdann52
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 21:54
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QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:37) *
I am going to send it off, but really wondering whether there is much chance of me recouping any of the £513, so wanted to post on here and get some idea from others who may have gone through similar.

Ok so it sounds like I may have to pay out more to get it overturned...on a tight budget due to maternity leave so that's why I wondered whether I should just suck it up.


Difficult to say - you make it sound like the council were looking sympathetically on it from your previous post - I can't see how it could harm your case so may as well go for it. Please post your OOT application here before sending it off - we may as well make sure it is written properly as you've nothing more to lose.


QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:37) *
Apologie if this next question makes me sounds incredibly stupid- after paying the full amount asked of me, have I actually paid the PCN? or just the bailiff fees??
On the day I thought I had paid the PCN as well but now not so sure.

I have never dealt with anything like this before in my life, so have lots of questions and have been googling like mad over the past few days.

Yes, this includes the PCN

This post has been edited by mdann52: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 21:55
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neverendingsumme...
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:07
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:52) *
QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:37) *
I am going to send it off,

Having paid, there is no rush, no deadline, so you have time to get it right with our help.

You gave some specific, helpful facts, around unfortunate timing, in your opening post.
Now give us some actual dates.


Thank you

PCN date was 27/4/2018

Date I sent off log book was 10/5/2018- I know this as car insurance and road tax were due to be paid.

Royal Mail redirection ran out around 2/4/2018

I asked bailiff if they could tell me when my new information was updated with DVLA- they were unable to tell me, but appeared to imply it was a long time after 10/5/18. They made reference to data protection in quite a few of their answers.

Would they have got my new address from the DVLA?
I recall going round in circles with them when I enquired about how they got my new address (in a genuinely curious way)- they couldn't give me a straight answer.
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neverendingsumme...
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:17
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QUOTE (mdann52 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:54) *
QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:37) *
I am going to send it off, but really wondering whether there is much chance of me recouping any of the £513, so wanted to post on here and get some idea from others who may have gone through similar.

Ok so it sounds like I may have to pay out more to get it overturned...on a tight budget due to maternity leave so that's why I wondered whether I should just suck it up.


Difficult to say - you make it sound like the council were looking sympathetically on it from your previous post - I can't see how it could harm your case so may as well go for it. Please post your OOT application here before sending it off - we may as well make sure it is written properly as you've nothing more to lose.


QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:37) *
Apologie if this next question makes me sounds incredibly stupid- after paying the full amount asked of me, have I actually paid the PCN? or just the bailiff fees??
On the day I thought I had paid the PCN as well but now not so sure.

I have never dealt with anything like this before in my life, so have lots of questions and have been googling like mad over the past few days.

Yes, this includes the PCN


Thank you for confirming that, I really feel like I've been driven slightly mad by all this during the last few days.

I don't know if the council were looking sympathetically or not- I assume not as I'm sure they get lots of similar people like me who call up after finding out about a PCN from months ago.

I've not even seen the PCN- I did ask about getting a photo or video evidence but they were quite vague about it, telling me to go to council website and put PCN in to view it.

I am incredulous that I've now spent over 500 quid on something that I can't see or hold- at least if I had the PCN letter, I would be able to see for myself- husband has denied that he drove in a bus lane, knows the road that it happened on very well.

That is why I still feel like Jeremy Beadle is going to jump out and tell it's all been one big joke....
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stamfordman
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:18
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It's the bailiff's job to find you. It's not hard to find most people.
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neverendingsumme...
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:34
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:18) *
It's the bailiff's job to find you. It's not hard to find most people.


I know that, but (genuinely curious) would it have been from the DVLA, the electoral roll or some other place?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 07:48
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You've paid the original penalty and added charges. Nothing is outstanding.

Get your V5C.

1. What is the 'docref' date, this is the date on which DVLA changed the entry in their register.
2. What does it say regarding notifying DVLA in the event of a change of details i.e. that if the new keeper does not receive a nee V5C within ** days of notifying DVLA then they must contact them. This is the only detail I need.

There is a saying that if you act in haste, you may repent at leisure. Don't fall into this trap. You need all relevant dates one of which is the docref date. IMO you do not need the backstory because TEC are not an Agony Aunt, they have a legal duty and only need data relevant to that context.

I think all you need is 2 actual dates: the PCN and docref. That's it.

The docref won't tell TEC when you applied to DVLA, but the V5C will say something along the lines of if you've not heard with 30 days.

So you'd work back. DVLA updated my V5C on ****. I cannot remember ( if true) the exact date on which I notified them but according to the instructions on the V5C this must have been around ****.
The PCN (and presumably all subsequent notices) was issued on ****.
For 5 months the authority have been pursuing me on a parallel plane with no prospect of convergence on their part because they relied on what turned out to be out of date DVLA data.
That the enforcement agents established my address with apparent ease suggests this could and should have been dealt with much earlier if a little lateral thinking had been applied by the authority.
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neverendingsumme...
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 09:00
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 08:48) *
You've paid the original penalty and added charges. Nothing is outstanding.

Get your V5C.

1. What is the 'docref' date, this is the date on which DVLA changed the entry in their register.
2. What does it say regarding notifying DVLA in the event of a change of details i.e. that if the new keeper does not receive a nee V5C within ** days of notifying DVLA then they must contact them. This is the only detail I need.

There is a saying that if you act in haste, you may repent at leisure. Don't fall into this trap. You need all relevant dates one of which is the docref date. IMO you do not need the backstory because TEC are not an Agony Aunt, they have a legal duty and only need data relevant to that context.

I think all you need is 2 actual dates: the PCN and docref. That's it.

The docref won't tell TEC when you applied to DVLA, but the V5C will say something along the lines of if you've not heard with 30 days.

So you'd work back. DVLA updated my V5C on ****. I cannot remember ( if true) the exact date on which I notified them but according to the instructions on the V5C this must have been around ****.
The PCN (and presumably all subsequent notices) was issued on ****.
For 5 months the authority have been pursuing me on a parallel plane with no prospect of convergence on their part because they relied on what turned out to be out of date DVLA data.
That the enforcement agents established my address with apparent ease suggests this could and should have been dealt with much earlier if a little lateral thinking had been applied by the authority.


Thank you

The dates are:

PCN occurred/issued on 27/4/2018
Docref in V5C is 11/05/2018

Yes, your last sentence is what I have been thinking- if they bailiffs could find me with relative ease etc, I did put this to them but they said that it was my fault the notices kept going to my old address as I had not updated the V5C in time.

In section 12 it looks like the timescale is 4 weeks- "what we will do...update our records with the new registered keeper details...send you an acknowledgement letter within 4 weeks"

"If you do not get an acknowledgement letter or refund from us within the above timescales you should contact us as www.gov.uk/contact-the-dvla as you could be liable for the vehicle and may get a penalty and/or be prosecuted"

So the Docref date looks like the DVLA would have used the date I put down when completing & signing section 6?

The date 11/05/2018 ties in with when I recall sorting out car insurance and road tax.

It was when I went to organise the road tax that I realised I had not received a notification so I did not have the code to put in...the dawning realisation then prompted me to send off the V5C.

So it looks like the PCN occurred 15 days before my address was updated in DVLA records.

My husband got a parking ticket a few weeks ago, this was addressed to me and received in the post at our current address...although v annoying to get another PCN, I am at least somewhat reassured that the DVLA is using my current information!
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neverendingsumme...
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:27
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Hello

I posted a number of weeks ago about an SDOOT- I will upload the blank forms here that I will fill in- I will type out my responses here before filling in the form, I would be very grateful for any further advice or tips on making my reasons more clear etc.

Forms are PE3 and the SDOOT form

Thank you

ok I cannot seem to successfully upload my documents.

The form PE3- I have ticked the box "I did not receive the notice to owner/enforcement notice/penalty charge notice"

My reasons are: The initial PCN and all subsequent correspondence was not received as I had changed address. The correspondence was being received at my old address, therefore I did not receive any of the correspondence.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this enough information for this part? I want to just state the facts that I moved address and so did not receive any of the correspondence.

Please advise if I should add any further relevant detail.
The SDOOT form is where I am going to add details and dates etc.
I did have a Royal Mail redirection set up for 6 months when we moved into our new home- however, this expired around 25 days before the PCN was issued- I think this is an irrelevant detail.

ok I cannot seem to successfully upload my documents.

The form PE3- I have ticked the box "I did not receive the notice to owner/enforcement notice/penalty charge notice"

My reasons are: The initial PCN and all subsequent correspondence was not received as I had changed address. The correspondence was being received at my old address, therefore I did not receive any of the correspondence.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this enough information for this part? I want to just state the facts that I moved address and so did not receive any of the correspondence.

Please advise if I should add any further relevant detail.
The SDOOT form is where I am going to add details and dates etc.
I did have a Royal Mail redirection set up for 6 months when we moved into our new home- however, this expired around 25 days before the PCN was issued- I think this is an irrelevant detail.

I hope this creates a new post as the ones above seem to have been amalgamated and make for confusing reading.
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neverendingsumme...
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 11:49
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********************************************************************************
*

I am unsure if this is going to create a separate post, mine all seem to be amalgamated together!

For the SDOOT form- My reasons for filing the SD outside the given times are as follows:

[b]The DVLA updated my V5C on 11/5/2018.
I cannot remember the exact date on which I notified them of the change of address, however, I presume that this must have been prior to 11/5/2018.

The PCN (and presumably all subsequent notices) was issued on 27/4/2018.

For over 5 months the local authority have been pursuing me on a parallel plane with no prospect of convergence on their part because they relied on what turned out to be out of date DVLA data.

That the enforcement agents established my address with apparent ease suggests this could and should have been dealt with much earlier if the local authority had applied some lateral thinking.
[/b]

I would very much appreciate any advice or opinions as to how I can improve this reply, or any important details that I may have left out.

Thank you in advance

********************************************************************************
****

Re PE3- I have ticked the box "I did not receive the notice to owner/enforcement notice/penalty charge notice"

My reasons are: The initial PCN and all subsequent correspondence was not received as I had changed address. The correspondence was being received at my old address, therefore I did not receive any of the correspondence.


Is this enough information for this part? I want to just state the facts that I moved address and so did not receive any of the correspondence.

Do I need to give dates for when I moved house? sorry if this is totally obvious that I do need it, but just unsure what level of detail the TEC require, am sure they do not wish to read pages of extraneous information.

Please advise if I should add any further relevant detail.

The SDOOT form is where I am going to add details and dates etc.

I did have a Royal Mail redirection set up for 6 months when we moved into our new home- however, this expired around 25 days before the PCN was issued- I think this is an irrelevant detail.

Thank you for any feedback/thoughts on my reply.

Thank you very much to hcandersen for all your advice in your previous post.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:15
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This must fail IMO.

Although not always successful, you give yourself the best chance by making it clear that the probability is that the authority requested your details at the same time that DVLA were in the process of actioning your request to amend your details.

The authority and you have been operating on parallel lines which only converged when the enforcement agents took the time to find out where you lived.

Personal rant:
TEC can be lazy.

If notices to the wrong address are returned then the authority are on notice that the address could be wrong. In response to which they....
..do s*d all and plough on regardless.
And when their agent confirms to them that the owner lives at another address - which of course must happen otherwise the warrant of control will be addressed wrongly and unenforceable but as the agents want their money as soon as possible they will tell the authority- the authority still object to an OOT using irrelevant points such as 'we sent notices to the address advised by DVLA(which before we issued a valid warrant of control we knew about)'
And TEC refuse OOTs based on such flimsy objections.
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Neil B
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:37
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QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 09:00) *
PCN occurred/issued on 27/4/2018

No.
Which is it because lt's highly relevant.

The date the bailiff gave and TEC hold is the contravention date.
You need the PCN date from the Council.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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neverendingsumme...
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:44
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Thank you for your thoughts hcandersen

So I should really be focusing on the probability that the authority requested my details at the same time as the DVLA was updating them?

It's very disheartening that my OOT is likely to fail, but I am going to send it off anyway.

It is so utterly frustrating that a PCN was issued in that small window of time where our Royal mail redirection ran out (on 2/4/18), PCN issued on 27/4/18 and V5C updated on 11/5/18.

As the docref date on V5C is 11/5/18 how can I work back? Is this the date the DVLA received my update? or is it the date my new address took effect?

There is only about 14 days between the PCN issue and my address being updated.

Although I appreciate that it means that my address was incorrect for those 14 days.

TEC/local authorities- sounds like a huge money making scheme in my opinion!

What kind of cases are successful when they appeal to TEC/submit an OOT SD?

QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 13:37) *
QUOTE (neverendingsummer @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 09:00) *
PCN occurred/issued on 27/4/2018

No.
Which is it because lt's highly relevant.

The date the bailiff gave and TEC hold is the contravention date.
You need the PCN date from the Council.


I was told by the bailiffs and the local authority that the offence occurred on 27/4/18 (driving in a bus lane).

Presumably the date that the PCN occurred or was issued will be the same one? i.e. the date that the offence happened?

I have no idea what date was on the original PCN letter or when it was received at my old address- I have not seen any correspondence from the local authority relating to the PCN, all I know is what I was told by the bailiffs and when I spoke with the TEC.

The local authority provided me with the PCN number prior to me contacting the TEC.

I also asked for some photographic evidence (just to so my eyes could believe the event that escalated into a £500+ bill!) but I have not received anything from either the local authority or nsl services.
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neverendingsumme...
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 12:57
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Neil B

I have just re-read your post and I think I understand what you are asking- the trafic contravention occurred on 27/4/18, however I do have the date that the PCN was actually issued on.

Are you referring to the date that would be on the original PCN letter?

I am starting to see how this has relevance, although I presumed that the only date that matters is the date of the traffic contravention and thus the address registered with the DVLA on that date?

*I do NOT have the date that was on the PCN letter originally sent out.

Am I just over thinking this/going around in circles??
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hcandersen
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 13:01
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Please listen to advice.

We do NOT need the date of contravention, we NEED the date of issue of the PCN.

Contravention date must of course preceed the authority's request to DVLA for RK info.

PCN issue date..which must of course follow the request..

For all we know the issue date was a week after the contraventin which, whether it's true or not - and we don't know - allows you to submit that given the docref date and although you cannot recall the exact date you notified DVLA, the overwhelming probability is that DVLA had your amendment request - which you obviously sent after you moved- at the same time that the authority requested your details.

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