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PCN for stopping in a box junction rec’d after 10 months
anjumanji
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:08
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Hi, I was hoping for some advice please. My husband had a company car earlier this year, it was a pool car. Anyway he received a PCN this morning for stopping in a yellow box junction in January. Would the normal time limits apply or should he pay up as it would have taken longer to identify him as the driver because of having to go through his work first?

Thanks.
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post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:08
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 23:15
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Upload the paperwork (redact just name and address) and the council video. The council are allowed extra time if liability is transferred from the registered keeper to some other person, but there are limits. Leave all the dates visible so we can check.


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hcandersen
post Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 08:09
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This has nothing to do with who was driving, it's a matter of law as to who may be held liable for decriminalised road traffic contraventions.

On the (very) limited basis of what you've said, he is not liable, but the company could be. The key here is 'pool vehicle'. In my experience these are vehicles a person may drive under their contract of employment but which are NOT allocated to them under a hiring agreement or similar and for that reason the driver may not be held liable in law.

But of course a contract of employment is another matter.

So, don't just post the PCN, you MUST tell us to whom it is addressed, and of course leave in all dates etc.
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anjumanji
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 08:25
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Thank you for the information. I'm looking into how to add the pictures and video. Can I provide the link for the CCTV or do I need to do something else?

The letter has been addressed to my husband and it was sent to our home address.

It was a pool car which he was using exclusively from early this year until April.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 08:34
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QUOTE (anjumanji @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 09:25) *
The letter has been addressed to my husband and it was sent to our home address.



Is that the name and address on the PCN - we're not the talking about the envelope.
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anjumanji
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 10:26
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 09:34) *
QUOTE (anjumanji @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 09:25) *
The letter has been addressed to my husband and it was sent to our home address.



Is that the name and address on the PCN - we're not the talking about the envelope.


Yes the PCN letter received is addressed to my husband at the home address. I’m assuming the information was supplied by his work.





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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 18:43
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And we can only ask again.

See the bold statement in box 2.

So how does your husband come to have a PCN in his name?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 20:09
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There is no provision to cancel a PCN served on the owner and re serve on the person assumed to be the driver without a hire agreement. The only other way would be if your possession of the car was such that the responsibility of ownership could be passed to you cant see that with a pool car nor can the council now reserve a fresh PCN on your employer


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anjumanji
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 20:47
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 19:43) *
And we can only ask again.

See the bold statement in box 2.

So how does your husband come to have a PCN in his name?

'm really not sure what you're asking here Neil. Have I missed something?

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 21:09) *
There is no provision to cancel a PCN served on the owner and re serve on the person assumed to be the driver without a hire agreement. The only other way would be if your possession of the car was such that the responsibility of ownership could be passed to you cant see that with a pool car nor can the council now reserve a fresh PCN on your employer


Thank you, so in this case my husband needs to appeal? What would be need to put as the reason for his appeal?


This post has been edited by anjumanji: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 20:45
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Incandescent
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 21:17
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The basic fact seems to be that you were NOT the owner of the car, OR hiring it on the date of the contravention, (although you were the driver). The law is quite specific that the keeper of the car as recorded on the V5C registration document holds full responsibility for appealing or paying the PCN. Of course most firms with pool cars would normally have in the staff conditions that drivers must pay any PCNs. YOu really need to check with the pool car manager on this aspect.

As for submitting reps, all you can put is "not the owner of the vehicle"

However, you haven't yet told us what name and address is on the V5C. If it is you, then you can take them all the way to adjudication, (or pay-up, of course).

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 21:18
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Neil B
post Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 21:21
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QUOTE (anjumanji @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 21:47) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 19:43) *
And we can only ask again.

See the bold statement in box 2.

So how does your husband come to have a PCN in his name?

'm really not sure what you're asking here Neil. Have I missed something?

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 8 Oct 2018 - 21:09) *
There is no provision to cancel a PCN served on the owner and re serve on the person assumed to be the driver without a hire agreement. The only other way would be if your possession of the car was such that the responsibility of ownership could be passed to you cant see that with a pool car nor can the council now reserve a fresh PCN on your employer


Thank you, so in this case my husband needs to appeal? What would be need to put as the reason for his appeal?

No.
Your husband needs to explain how he comes to be (assumed to be) liable. We're in the dark and he is the only person who is able
to answer that question.
So, again,
--- only the owner is legally liable and, on the face of it, he isn't the owner.
--- We don't even know who the owner of the vehicle was as, being a Company pool car, it could likely have been a leased vehicle.
--- The 'owner' of a vehicle may transfer legal liability to the 'user' of a vehicle if that user had signed a hire agreement, That often be
a straightforward hire of a vehicle by joe public but it might also apply if, while the pool car was specifically assigned to your husband (others might
have missed you saying that), via a lease co, it might count as a hire agreement.
--- If it's none of the above then he is not legally liable in terms of civil enforcement legislation and it cannot and should not have been
transferred to him.
BUT
--- as HCA started to explain,he may have signed a contractual agreement, with his employer, to accept responsibility for PCNs.
They could hold him to that but they may not transfer liability to him in the eyes of the Council.

Only he knows which/what of the above applies. He signed something/ or didn't; we don't know; he does.

I hope that helps.

When you think about it, it's odd to be driving a vehicle on the road without knowing your basic legal responsibility/liability.





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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 08:03
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The liability issue is important although I can't see the OP's husband been registered as the "keeper" with DVLA. We also need to bottom out whether the PCN is out of time in accordance with the legislation:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/6/enacted

The Council need to provide an audit trail to justify what is apparently an out of time PCN.

If the original PCN went to the lease company or the employers and was cancelled, then the Council have 28 days from that cancellation to serve a fresh PCN unless the "relevant particulars" relating to the identity of the owner of the vehicle contained in the register of mechanically propelled vehicles maintained by the Secretary of State under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 was not available. If that is so then the Council has a further 6 months to serve a fresh PCN.

A dichotomy since if the original PCN was served in time the Council has no access to the extra 6 months.

To me this is the key issue rather than the owner/keeper liability. The Council is trying it on and any appeal should state that the PCN was served out of time and if the Council want to defend this contention they should justify their actions and prove the PCN is valid.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 09:58
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OP just in case you're concerned on this point, if the authority have cancelled a previous PCN sent perhaps to the employer and if they were not permitted to do so, which we'll find out, and if they're required to cancel yours then it's tango sierra for the authority, they do not get another bite at any previous recipient of a PCN.

Are you clear on these points?
What's your thinking on the matter?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 09:59
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anjumanji
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 14:31
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Thanks for the replies, so much to take in!

So in answer to some of the questions,

He was driving when the offence took place.

It was a pool car which was specifically assigned to him and which he had to keep until the end of the term. It would have become a pool car after being leased by an employee who had subsequently left the company before the 3 year lease period expired.

Re the V5 document that would be held by his employer as far as I’m aware

As for his contract it does state that he is responsible for any PCNs.

I recall previously (different vehicle) when he had a PCN he wasn’t able to appeal as the car was registered with his work. They wouldn’t appeal and the council refused to discuss it with my husband. His work insisted that he paid so he had to suck it up and pay. Looks like it’ll be the same again this time.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 15:03
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Which is why I asked about your understanding.

Looks like it’ll be the same again this time.

Absolutely not, it is not the same.

Whether he should or shouldn't have been sent a PCN is for the future: he was and must respond. ( a common fallacy we see here is from OPs who on receiving a PCN issued in error then decide to do nothing because they know it's an error. Disaster. Even b******s has to be dealt with).

So it's up to you. You can make winning reps (even if ultimately at adjudication) or pay. We can't tell you what to do.

What we can do is guarantee that your employer is totally out of the picture. Nothing that happens now has anything to do with them, they are as interested a party as I am. They won't know what happens, so the matter is solely between you and the council. If you accept this, please confirm. It will make life difficult if you still think that the employer might find out because this will play on your mind with, I fear, inevitable consequences later on i.e. you pay because the authority are obdurate and stupid.

So, what's your understanding now?
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anjumanji
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 13:42
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 9 Oct 2018 - 16:03) *
Which is why I asked about your understanding.

Looks like it’ll be the same again this time.

Absolutely not, it is not the same.

Whether he should or shouldn't have been sent a PCN is for the future: he was and must respond. ( a common fallacy we see here is from OPs who on receiving a PCN issued in error then decide to do nothing because they know it's an error. Disaster. Even b******s has to be dealt with).

So it's up to you. You can make winning reps (even if ultimately at adjudication) or pay. We can't tell you what to do.

What we can do is guarantee that your employer is totally out of the picture. Nothing that happens now has anything to do with them, they are as interested a party as I am. They won't know what happens, so the matter is solely between you and the council. If you accept this, please confirm. It will make life difficult if you still think that the employer might find out because this will play on your mind with, I fear, inevitable consequences later on i.e. you pay because the authority are obdurate and stupid.

So, what's your understanding now?


Ok he was ready to pay it but I’ve convinced him to try and appeal.

I would really appreciate it if you could let me know what the next steps should be please.

Thanks.
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cp8759
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 18:36
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QUOTE (anjumanji @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:42) *
Ok he was ready to pay it but I’ve convinced him to try and appeal.

I would really appreciate it if you could let me know what the next steps should be please.

Thanks.

Uploading the paperwork and the council evidence (including the video) would be a good start.


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anjumanji
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 19:36) *
QUOTE (anjumanji @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:42) *
Ok he was ready to pay it but I’ve convinced him to try and appeal.

I would really appreciate it if you could let me know what the next steps should be please.

Thanks.

Uploading the paperwork and the council evidence (including the video) would be a good start.


Hi, the paperwork has already been uploaded above. However I can't figure out how to add the cctv evidence.

When I view the video there's a note on the page saying "A representation has previously been made for this case."

My husband asked at work and was told that the lease company originally received the PCN in February, it was then passed to his work and then on to him.



This post has been edited by anjumanji: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:10
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cp8759
post Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 17:44
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I've got this:



I take it you just decided to pay?


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