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Disabled parking bay, Missing sign
Redivi
post Fri, 5 Apr 2019 - 17:36
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My wife recently collected a penalty notice for using the disabled bay outside Skegness library

The sign at that end of the bay was missing and she assumed it was only a short term parking bay like the rest of the road

The informal challenge on the grounds of the missing sign has been rejected
Does she have any defence or was she expected to walk the short distance to the sign at the other end of the bay ?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.1454199,0...3312!8i6656


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post Fri, 5 Apr 2019 - 17:36
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 5 Apr 2019 - 17:45
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the one sign would be enough, but if the council erected two they must have thought they were needed so if one is missing, is the bay adequately signed?

Post the PCN council photos challenge and rejection


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All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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cp8759
post Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 21:40
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 5 Apr 2019 - 18:36) *
My wife recently collected a penalty notice for using the disabled bay outside Skegness library

The sign at that end of the bay was missing and she assumed it was only a short term parking bay like the rest of the road

The informal challenge on the grounds of the missing sign has been rejected
Does she have any defence or was she expected to walk the short distance to the sign at the other end of the bay ?

To get meaningful advice, you need to show us:

1) The PCN, both sides including all the small print
2) All the council photos
3) Your informal representation
4) Their rejection

Then we can tell you whether there are grounds to challenge. See http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125502 for advice on how to post the photos.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Redivi
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 13:46
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Here are the images

The appeal of the PCN was :

Hello

I am challenging this penalty notice

The sign was missing at the end of the bay where the car was parked.
This was confirmed by the parking attendant who agreed that it was missing and took a picture of the post.
If this challenge is not accepted, please send me a copy of her pictures and notes.
I do not have the webcode to view them online

Thank You and Best Regards


The pictures show that the PCN wasn't placed on the windscreen and show my wife standing on the pavement opening the passenger door
In my view this is evidence that a conversation took place

She hasn't received a copy of the CEO notes and the only other picture is the sign at the other end of the bay
My wife says that although the CEO agreed that the sign was missing, she didn't take a picture of it - only asked permission to take a picture of her car !!

Recent picture showing missing sign
Streetview from September 2018 showing sign missing
PCN Page 1
PCN Page 2
Letter of Rejection of PCN Page 1
Letter of Rejection of PCN Page 2
NTO Page 1
NTO Page 2
NTO Page 3
NTO Page 4



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DancingDad
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:44
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Here
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.14553,0.3...33;1b1!2i40

6 of one half a dozen of the other.
Yes pole sign is missing and indeed was missing in Sept 18 so not a short term issue.
No road legend but that is not mandatory.
But the bay is only 2-3 vehicles long and the other pole sign is there.

It could go either way, an adjudicator could decide that as the council decided that two signs were needed, the signage is now inadequate.
Or that one sign in a bay that long is plenty good enough.
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hcandersen
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 16:22
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IMO, not a hope in hell of succeeding at adjudication as things stand.

The driver didn't even bother to look for a sign, all they saw was a pole and with no reason to suspect it had any relevance chose not to look elsewhere - and not very far at that- for a sign, but assumed they could leave the car.

And even now we don't know what was on the other post..pl pick up your litter or whatever, because it isn't in evidence and even if it was, would not affect the driver's obligations which could have been easily discharged with no more than a few steps.

So the OP must do better. As they're committed to making reps anyway, then I suggest (if true) something along the lines of:

The driver has parked in this road before but not at this location. She was therefore aware of the regular parking restriction in the road i.e. ******* (I have poor a internet connection at present and so cannot read the sign in the preceding parking place)

On approaching the parking place the last sign the driver saw was *****. The driver parked and saw a sign ahead but from an oblique angle could not notice any details.

However, the driver was confused because the parking place does not carry the road marking 'Disabled' (which I accept may be omitted) and is of regular dimensions and not those prescribed by regulations i.e. 'When reserved for disabled badge holders at certain times (whether or not also reserved for other users)—

(b)the width of the bay must be at least 2700 mm


Therefore nothing about the road markings indicated that this bay was anything other than one reserved for general use which, in the case of ***** Road, is *********.

Had the road markings been of the prescribed form, then the nature of the restriction would have been brought to the driver's attention and, notwithstanding that the pole closer to the car has long since lost whatever sign the council saw fit to erect, they would have sought out the applicable traffic sign and not left their car at the location.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 16:40
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hca got there before me!

The Mercedes c220 in the photo has a width (including wing mirrors) of 2.02m. The statutory width of a Disabled bay should be 2.7m

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

Bay is undersized if it is a dedicated disabled bay.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 16:46
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Doesn't have to be reserved to disabled as the regs make clear.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 16:55
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2.—(1) When reserved for disabled badge holders at certain times (whether or not also reserved for other users)—

(a) the length of the bay must be at least 6600 mm; and

(b) the width of the bay must be at least 2700 mm (or 3000 mm when placed in the centre of the carriageway) except in a case where, on account of the nature of traffic using the road, the overall width of the carriageway is insufficient to accommodate a bay of that width.

Or have I missed something?

Mick
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Redivi
post Sat, 18 May 2019 - 17:20
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 17:40) *
hca got there before me!

The Mercedes c220 in the photo has a width (including wing mirrors) of 2.02m. The statutory width of a Disabled bay should be 2.7m

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/7/made

Bay is undersized if it is a dedicated disabled bay.

Mick

Is that right ?

That is very interesting

There's another disabled bay in Skegness where I often see the CEOs issuing PCNs
I'll get my tape measure

The other parking bays along that road are 30 minutes stay and she decided to roll forward

Edit :

Found it

Going out now with a tape measure and a camera
After years of complaining about the time I spend here, Mrs Redivi has taken some interest and wants to come as well

Says a lot for Skegness when a Saturday night out is measuring the disabled bays

This post has been edited by Redivi: Sat, 18 May 2019 - 17:43
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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 18:05
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How does this look ?

I would like to appeal this Penalty Notice

I have parked in this road before but not at this location.
I was aware of the regular parking restriction in the road that vehicles are limited to 30 minutes with no return before 30 minutes.

On approaching the parking place, the last sign I saw was the 30 minutes limit.
I parked and saw the sign ahead but from the oblique angle could not read any details.
However, I was confused because the parking place does not carry the road marking “Disabled” (which I accept may be omitted) and is of regular dimensions.

Contrary to the statement in the Notice of Rejection of Informal Challenge it does not comply with the Traffic Signs and General Directions Regulations 2016.
Specifically it fails to comply with Schedule 7 Part 5 Para 2(b):
When reserved for disabled badge holders at certain times (whether or not also reserved for other users)-
(b) the width of the bay must be at least 2700 mm

Therefore nothing about the road markings indicated that this bay, only 2150 mm wide, was anything other than one reserved for general use which, in the case of Roman Bank, has a 30 minutes time limit.
Had the road markings been of the prescribed form, then the nature of the restriction would have been brought to my attention and, notwithstanding that the pole closer to the car has long since lost whatever sign the council saw fit to erect, I would have sought out the applicable traffic sign and not left my car at the location.

As the CEO photographs confirm, I was present when she issued the Penalty Notice and she confirmed in conversation that the sign was missing.
The Notice of Rejection has not included the copy of her notes that I requested.

I therefore request that the Penalty Notice is cancelled.

Thank You

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hcandersen
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 18:31
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OP, your case, and one not so long ago, highlight that we need to spell out clearly to every OP the last day for submission of reps once a NTO has been served.

In your case TOMORROW.

Having lost 4 days since the last posts, you haven't got time to refine your reps to the nth degree.

As I wrote what you've drafted, I can hardly review. Wait for the comments of others.
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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 19:46
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I've been either in or preparing for court since last Thursday
Case continued for an extra day

Submitted the appeal online and received the acknowledgement

Thanks for the draft
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