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Reinstate discount after appeal
Zwypl
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:23
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I cant scan all the docs, please help according to these facts.

Sister was caught in yellow box by TFL.
Within 14 days wrote in some formal rep that didn't know traffic would stop.
Received rejection letter, that the excuse wasn't accepted, however TFL erred that the amount payable is £130 and the discount lost.
Appealed to Tribunal that the discount should be on hold, as wrote in within 14 days period, see link:
"https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/penalty-charge-notices/enforcement-process"]https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes...rcement-process[/url]
Received this attached letter that they agree to accept £65 (only by post or by phone - online system still says £130).
Today TFL called (!) my sister to ask if she wants to pay £65!


Do they have a case that they are reducing now or it too late for them?

This post has been edited by Zwypl: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:27
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post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:23
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peterguk
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:27
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So you wanted to pay the reduced amount?

TfL agreed to reduced amount.

Now you want to pay noithing?


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Zwypl
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:31
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:27) *
So you wanted to pay the reduced amount?

TfL agreed to reduced amount.

Now you want to pay noithing?


If "The Penalty Charge exceeds the amount payable in the circumstances of the case" it is too late for the EA to reverse it back, isnt it?

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:32
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The discount does not have to be re offered if representations accepted.

The adjudicator cannot order TfL to accept the discount in such a case.

Post all correspondence
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Zwypl
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:37
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:32) *
The discount does not have to be re offered if representations accepted.

The adjudicator cannot order TfL to accept the discount in such a case.

Post all correspondence


Don't understand: Reps were rejected. According to TFL protocol the discount should not have been lost, so they have demanded more than is due. Why should the adj not cancel PCN.

This post has been edited by Zwypl: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:37
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Neil B
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:53
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But you're asking about something you haven't shown us.

And what little you've shown of what you say is a later letter makes no sense as context
lost without it all.

Why do you need to scan? Just snap it.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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mashkiach
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:57
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I think it is a promise within the original ticket of keeping the discount. So if it is revoked unilaterally it ends up as a PI.
However now that it is re-offered I can not see CH of LT giving in on that one.
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spaceman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 13:20
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QUOTE (Zwypl @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:37) *
Don't understand: Reps were rejected. According to TFL protocol the discount should not have been lost, so they have demanded more than is due. Why should the adj not cancel PCN.


Confused. You say your reps were rejected and you appealed to the tribunal. What did the adjudicator say?

The discounted penalty charge is normally accepted if paid within the period specified in the PCN. If it isn't, then extending this is at the discretion of the Enforcement Authority.

They do no appear to me to be demanding more than the amount applicable.

Does your sister want to pay the discounted fee or not?

As for "why should the adj not cancel PCN", you haven't told us anything yet about the grounds of any appeal, just that your sister "did not know the traffic would stop", IMO that will get her nowhere at adjudication.

QUOTE (mashkiach @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:57) *
I think it is a promise within the original ticket of keeping the discount. So if it is revoked unilaterally it ends up as a PI.
However now that it is re-offered I can not see CH of LT giving in on that one.


Unlikely to be on the original PCN. Even if it was, extending the reduced penalty charge is not something required by the appropriate legislation and even revoking this would not be a PI.

PIs are TMA only.
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Zwypl
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 20:07
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Ok, here are the docs for your kind perusal:



I wrote in within 14 days, something about not knowing that traffic would stop.





I then appealed to Tribunal and provided the statement as follows:-

Representations

• The Notice to Owner is dated 31/10/17.

• Formal reps. Submitted online 13/11/17 (11:29).

• Notice of Rejection dated 28/11/17.


I wrote in to the authority (TFL) within 14 days of the NTO.

The NoR states that the amount payable is £130 (this was also stated on TFL’s website). The Authority has removed the discount despite me writing in within the 14-day period.

This is unjust, and the Authority has demanded an amount exceeding the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

TFL’s website (copy attached – link below) says as follows: -
Yellow box junction & banned turns
• Challenge the PCN by making a representation in writing within 28 days of receiving the PCN and await a decision from us. If you write to us within 14 days of receiving the PCN, we will hold the charge at the discounted rate (£65) while we consider your representation

Link: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes...#on-this-page-1

On the initial post, you have seen already the unusual letter I got from TFL dated 2/1/18 after the appeal, with the Tribunal case number on the heading.
Strange that TFL called my sister Friday to ask if she intends to pay the £65! Have you ever heard of them calling to ask?
What do you think?



QUOTE (mashkiach @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:57) *
I think it is a promise within the original ticket of keeping the discount. So if it is revoked unilaterally it ends up as a PI.
However now that it is re-offered I can not see CH of LT giving in on that one.

I think PI does not apply for this contra. Is this called re-offered after they force me to go to appeal and have prejudiced my position?

This post has been edited by Zwypl: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 20:16
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 21:12
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Who sent the letter in the original post? TFL if so they will be applauded by the adjudicator for trying to avoid a hearing. You might win on the basis that they made a commitment and should have kept to it, but IMO that they have done so will work against you.

If your intent was t opay the discount do so
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Incandescent
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 22:24
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The appeal grounds of "procedural impropriety'only apply to parking contraventions enforced under the Traffic Management Act 2004. Whilst we would like to see this appeal grounds valid for all PCNs, unfortunately at the moment it doesn't. Appallingly bad government has lead to this situation, but PI is relatively recent, as decriminalise parking enforcement goes back to 1991. Before the TMA 2004, the statutory appeal ground of "the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case" was used and accepted by adjudicators for all collateral challenges and appeals. This covers cases where the enforcing authority has not acted correctly and lawfully.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 08:41
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What is your appeal case number? Can't use your earlier link.

You have been to the adjudicator, therefore unless you intend or can ask for a review of that decision you are bound by it and what happened before - which seems to occupy most of this thread - is not relevant (other than in informing your decision whether to apply for a review).

This is where you are procedurally.

So, the case number please so we can see what the adjudicator found.
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Zwypl
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 09:15
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 08:41) *
What is your appeal case number? Can't use your earlier link.

You have been to the adjudicator, therefore unless you intend or can ask for a review of that decision you are bound by it and what happened before - which seems to occupy most of this thread - is not relevant (other than in informing your decision whether to apply for a review).

This is where you are procedurally.

So, the case number please so we can see what the adjudicator found.


Perhaps I wasn't clear.

The appeal process at the tribunal has just started, there is no decision yet. I have sent my appeal to the Tribunal in December (after receiving the NoR), TFL have to serve evidence by 18/1. In the interim I have received from TFL this letter (and a call):

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hcandersen
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 09:47
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Perhaps I wasn't clear.

No, you weren't!!

So, as implied by an earlier poster, what is it you're looking for?

In any event, I would bring this letter to the attention of the ajudicator.

Enforcement action by the authority MUST CEASE if your appeal has been registered by the adjudicator. It is grossly improper of TfL to state otherwise. Although them writing to you at all is questionable, if your grounds of appeal (which we haven't seen) focus on their failure to re-offer the discount (which we don't know was included in the PCN because we haven't seen the other pages!!), then them re-offering at this stage is likely to be forgiven by the adj (encouraged by some to reduce their burden).

The adj may even forgive TfL's attempt to usurp the role and authority of the adj with their reference to continuing enforcement action, but I'd put it in your appeal anyway.

So, your grounds of appeal and all pages of the PCN pl. Do not contact TfL, I'd be happy to help you draft something once I've seen these docs.
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 10:37
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Someone should inform TfL that the TSRGD 2002 was revoked on 22nd April 2016. Referring the OP to revoked legislation is sloppy. Looks like management forgot to amend their template rejection letters.

This post has been edited by Bogsy: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 10:39
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Zwypl
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 13:24
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 09:47) *
Perhaps I wasn't clear.

No, you weren't!!

So, as implied by an earlier poster, what is it you're looking for?

In any event, I would bring this letter to the attention of the ajudicator.

Enforcement action by the authority MUST CEASE if your appeal has been registered by the adjudicator. It is grossly improper of TfL to state otherwise. Although them writing to you at all is questionable, if your grounds of appeal (which we haven't seen) focus on their failure to re-offer the discount (which we don't know was included in the PCN because we haven't seen the other pages!!), then them re-offering at this stage is likely to be forgiven by the adj (encouraged by some to reduce their burden).

The adj may even forgive TfL's attempt to usurp the role and authority of the adj with their reference to continuing enforcement action, but I'd put it in your appeal anyway.

So, your grounds of appeal and all pages of the PCN pl. Do not contact TfL, I'd be happy to help you draft something once I've seen these docs.


The grounds of appeal were (1) no contra (2) the amount exceeded the amount applicable.

IMHO this (2) should make the PCN void, and it is too late to remove the discount at this stage.

Please see post 9 above with the exact wording of the rep at the appeal.

I also attach the part of TFL's website (not on the actual PCN/NtO) that the discount is put on hold (if reps are within 14 days).


This post has been edited by Zwypl: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 13:25
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 13:39
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Pays your money and takes your choice.

TFL make a promise to re-instate the discount should they reject a challenge made within the 14 day period.
You made a challenge on day 14 which is within period.
They failed to uphold their promise.
Which to me does make it that within the NOR, they sought to charge a higher penalty then was due in the circumstances.

They have since tried to rectify this error by an extra letter, not within the normal prescribed notices.

Which falls into the lap of which adjudicator hears your case.... shouldn't but will do.
To me, the words of one adjudicator should apply.... along the lines of:-
"if a motorist makes an error, there are consequences in the form of a PCN. If an enforcement authority makes an error, there are also consequences in that the PCN must be cancelled"

They made an error, that should see the PCN cancelled.
That they seek to rectify the error has no more bearing then if a motorist asks for discretion, it does not remove the error, the offer simply gives the motorist chance to close the case.

But I cannot predict who will hear your case or what their thoughts would be.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:55
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So the OP takes the re-offered discount and the case is still open at ETA. TfL withdraw the case? That would mean the OP can instigate a chargeback on his card?

Just a thought.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 16:38
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:55) *
So the OP takes the re-offered discount and the case is still open at ETA. TfL withdraw the case? That would mean the OP can instigate a chargeback on his card?

Just a thought.

Mick

Feck me Mick, not even in jest.
Conditional offer in full settlement of the charge.
Cancel the payment and TFL would be entitled to escalate it straight to Charge Certificate at the end of 28 days.
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spaceman
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 17:49
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:55) *
So the OP takes the re-offered discount and the case is still open at ETA. TfL withdraw the case? That would mean the OP can instigate a chargeback on his card?

Just a thought.

Mick

Why does this 'advice' not surprise me?

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 15:55) *
So the OP takes the re-offered discount and the case is still open at ETA. TfL withdraw the case? That would mean the OP can instigate a chargeback on his card?

Just a thought.

Mick

Why does this 'advice' not surprise me?
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