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PCN code 21
Stronz91
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:39
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Hi everyone,

Apologies in advance if any information is missing - please ask if anything is required and I will be happy to provide.

I have received a PCN from Bedford Borough Council stating that I have parked in a suspended bay/space - code 21.
Upon coming back to my car and seeing the PCN I then noticed the notice adjacent to the parking bay, the sign states this is due to ongoing building work, but the ticket was late in the evening around 9PM +

There are no errors on the PCN, I have attached a photo of the signage to see if there's anything that can be done to contest this?


Attached Image


Update: Added PCN, side view with very crude drawing to show where car was parked (blue) and where container was (red) and a front view of the road with multi-storey car park in clear view - hope this helps!

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


This post has been edited by Stronz91: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 22:37
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post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:39
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:45
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QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:39) *
Hi everyone,

Apologies in advance if any information is missing - please ask if anything is required and I will be happy to provide.

I have received a PCN from Bedford Borough Council stating that I have parked in a suspended bay/space - code 21.
Upon coming back to my car and seeing the PCN I then noticed the notice adjacent to the parking bay, the sign states this is due to ongoing building work, but the ticket was late in the evening around 9PM +

There are no errors on the PCN, I have attached a photo of the signage to see if there's anything that can be done to contest this?


Attached Image



post the PCN and all the council pics All bays adjacent to the works and storage area seems a bit vague
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Stronz91
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 00:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:45) *
QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 23:39) *
Hi everyone,

Apologies in advance if any information is missing - please ask if anything is required and I will be happy to provide.

I have received a PCN from Bedford Borough Council stating that I have parked in a suspended bay/space - code 21.
Upon coming back to my car and seeing the PCN I then noticed the notice adjacent to the parking bay, the sign states this is due to ongoing building work, but the ticket was late in the evening around 9PM +

There are no errors on the PCN, I have attached a photo of the signage to see if there's anything that can be done to contest this?


Attached Image



post the PCN and all the council pics All bays adjacent to the works and storage area seems a bit vague


Hi, many thanks for your swift reply.

I've tried my best to attach a photo of the area and the bays adjacent to the container (there was no work going on, no marked off areas etc)
Also attached PCN.

If the photos are not good enough I can try to take a few tomorrow but they will be the same apart from the container to the right of my car (red in the picture)
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:15
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Here's the authorisation which, unfortunately, contains a 6 month suspension limit:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4164.pdf

All spaces o/s the car park seems definite IMO. Nothing leaping out by way of possible grounds of appeal.

Mick
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:03
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:15) *
Here's the authorisation which, unfortunately, contains a 6 month suspension limit:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4164.pdf

All spaces o/s the car park seems definite IMO. Nothing leaping out by way of possible grounds of appeal.

Mick



@ MMV Mick all spaces o/s car park would be definitive, but all spaces adjacent to lift replacement work and storage area? looking at OP's GSV diagram they could argue they are not adjacent

OP we need the council photos
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 19:17
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@PMB

I read the sign as Location:---- All bays adjacent to the car park;
Reason:----- Lift replacement works and equipment storage.

Mick
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Stronz91
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 19:21
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:03) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:15) *
Here's the authorisation which, unfortunately, contains a 6 month suspension limit:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4164.pdf

All spaces o/s the car park seems definite IMO. Nothing leaping out by way of possible grounds of appeal.

Mick



@ MMV Mick all spaces o/s car park would be definitive, but all spaces adjacent to lift replacement work and storage area? looking at OP's GSV diagram they could argue they are not adjacent

OP we need the council photos


Hi,

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by the council photos? Of the evidence or of the area with the current works?
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:34
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QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:03) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:15) *
Here's the authorisation which, unfortunately, contains a 6 month suspension limit:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4164.pdf

All spaces o/s the car park seems definite IMO. Nothing leaping out by way of possible grounds of appeal.

Mick



@ MMV Mick all spaces o/s car park would be definitive, but all spaces adjacent to lift replacement work and storage area? looking at OP's GSV diagram they could argue they are not adjacent

OP we need the council photos


Hi,

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by the council photos? Of the evidence or of the area with the current works?


The councils evidence photos, they should be available online, but if not phone and ask.

@ MMV

Mick that we are having a discussion shows an ambiguity, this must be decided in the Op's favour
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Stronz91
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:45
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:34) *
QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:03) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:15) *
Here's the authorisation which, unfortunately, contains a 6 month suspension limit:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4164.pdf

All spaces o/s the car park seems definite IMO. Nothing leaping out by way of possible grounds of appeal.

Mick



@ MMV Mick all spaces o/s car park would be definitive, but all spaces adjacent to lift replacement work and storage area? looking at OP's GSV diagram they could argue they are not adjacent

OP we need the council photos


Hi,

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by the council photos? Of the evidence or of the area with the current works?


The councils evidence photos, they should be available online, but if not phone and ask.

@ MMV

Mick that we are having a discussion shows an ambiguity, this must be decided in the Op's favour


Their photos only show the number plate of my car and the ticket on my windscreen, plus the signage I have attached. No other pictures. Still happy to post if you'd like these.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:54
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QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:45) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:34) *
QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:03) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:15) *
Here's the authorisation which, unfortunately, contains a 6 month suspension limit:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4164.pdf

All spaces o/s the car park seems definite IMO. Nothing leaping out by way of possible grounds of appeal.

Mick



@ MMV Mick all spaces o/s car park would be definitive, but all spaces adjacent to lift replacement work and storage area? looking at OP's GSV diagram they could argue they are not adjacent

OP we need the council photos


Hi,

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by the council photos? Of the evidence or of the area with the current works?


They are there evidence, so post them. We may ask you yo go back and take some of your own showing signs in relation to your car

The councils evidence photos, they should be available online, but if not phone and ask.

@ MMV

Mick that we are having a discussion shows an ambiguity, this must be decided in the Op's favour


Their photos only show the number plate of my car and the ticket on my windscreen, plus the signage I have attached. No other pictures. Still happy to post if you'd like these.

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Stronz91
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 23:05
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:54) *
QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:45) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 21:34) *
QUOTE (Stronz91 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 19:21) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:03) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:15) *
Here's the authorisation which, unfortunately, contains a 6 month suspension limit:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4164.pdf

All spaces o/s the car park seems definite IMO. Nothing leaping out by way of possible grounds of appeal.

Mick



@ MMV Mick all spaces o/s car park would be definitive, but all spaces adjacent to lift replacement work and storage area? looking at OP's GSV diagram they could argue they are not adjacent

OP we need the council photos


Hi,

Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by the council photos? Of the evidence or of the area with the current works?


They are there evidence, so post them. We may ask you yo go back and take some of your own showing signs in relation to your car

The councils evidence photos, they should be available online, but if not phone and ask.

@ MMV

Mick that we are having a discussion shows an ambiguity, this must be decided in the Op's favour


Their photos only show the number plate of my car and the ticket on my windscreen, plus the signage I have attached. No other pictures. Still happy to post if you'd like these.



All uploaded as requested smile.gif

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image


Attached Image

Attached Image


This post has been edited by Stronz91: Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 22:38
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DancingDad
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 23:15
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Well them photos show your car somewhere and a suspension notice so not exactly helpful to the council.

Can you get a photo or two of the area as it is at the moment, so we can see the works area what ever that is ??

At the moment I am thinking of inadequate signage.
What is the storage area and where is the work being carried out and as such, what spaces are adjacent?
And do they mean adjacent, ie next to or just close to?

Unless the relevant bits are obvious a claim that you simply could not correlate the sign with the works etc should win.
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Stronz91
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 00:22
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 23:15) *
Well them photos show your car somewhere and a suspension notice so not exactly helpful to the council.

Can you get a photo or two of the area as it is at the moment, so we can see the works area what ever that is ??

At the moment I am thinking of inadequate signage.
What is the storage area and where is the work being carried out and as such, what spaces are adjacent?
And do they mean adjacent, ie next to or just close to?

Unless the relevant bits are obvious a claim that you simply could not correlate the sign with the works etc should win.


I was thinking this too, it's just a photo of my car and of the sign.

Will get photos tomorrow - appreciate the help!
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Stronz91
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 18:26
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Wasn't able to get photos today, will do so tomorrow.
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Stronz91
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 22:44
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Please find attached photos of the area currently, no obvious works begin carried out on the car park, container at the end of the parking bay not in use.

Attached Image

Attached Image

Attached Image
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hcandersen
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 11:32
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Eats shoots and leaves, or eats, shoots and leaves?

The sign is clear in the council's mind: the location is all bays adjacent to the car park. The reason for this: lift replacement works.

But it could be read as the location being all bays adjacent to the car park lift replacement works, which are where????
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 12:44
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I gotta admit I read it as adjacent to the lift replacement works and storage area.
And wanted to see how clear these areas are to the average motorist.

Even with HCA correcting my thoughts, I would still go with ambiguous signage.
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Stronz91
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 12:50
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 11:32) *
Eats shoots and leaves, or eats, shoots and leaves?

The sign is clear in the council's mind: the location is all bays adjacent to the car park. The reason for this: lift replacement works.

But it could be read as the location being all bays adjacent to the car park lift replacement works, which are where????


I couldn't locate the lift myself when I went to take photos.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 13:17
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The lift is irrelevant if it relates to the nature of the works as opposed to their location

OP, you need to sort out matters in your mind and therefore be consistent in your argument:
I did not see the sign, in which case considerations as regards its contents are after the fact.

So, did you see it?

I saw it and misinterpreted its details, thinking that the suspended area was the bays immediately either side of the skip and, as can be seen from the authority's photos (I hope), I was not parked in this area.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 13:25
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 13:17) *
The lift is irrelevant if it relates to the nature of the works as opposed to their location

........I was looking for the lift as well smile.gif

I saw it and misinterpreted its details, thinking that the suspended area was the bays immediately either side of the skip and, as can be seen from the authority's photos (I hope), I was not parked in this area.



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