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Yellow Box Junction PCN - Video included
HYG
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:00
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Hi,

I recently received the following PCN from TFL for contravention "31J Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited". My car is the silver one behind the green lorry.

I have attached a scanned copy of the Notice. Attached File  20180110130440104.pdf ( 136.9K ) Number of downloads: 25

As you can see from the VIDEO FOOTAGE LINK (might take a moment to display when the link is clicked) when I entered the box junction the road ahead was clear, the lorry was driving straight ahead, (at the lights it was signalling to go right at the roundabout) it then decided to turn its wheels to the left and took the space I was due to drive into. Looking at the video, I should have slowly navigated my way to the left (can't believe I did not do that). It is only my back wheels that are on the box junction (although it seems that is enough to incur a penalty) and I am not actually causing traffic problems, so I feel very harshly done by.

I have looked on the forums and came across the following points mentioned by @stamfordman

I wish to appeal the PCN based on the following information:

- My understanding is that if another vehicle cuts across to take my exit space and this cannot have been foreseen by me the contravention does not occur. In this case, your video shows the green truck drove across my line and, unsure of its intention, I stopped as I felt I had no choice but to let it in.
- In any case, I also understand that the contravention does not occur if my exit was not blocked by stationary vehicles. In this case, the video shows I then had space to the front and left and was not in fact blocked by a stationary vehicle. This is much easier to appreciate from your camera than it was at the time for me, being low down in my car.
- And also from the video, the stop was minimal and in the bounds of 'de minimis'.

On these grounds I would ask you to please cancel the PCN.

I would really appreciate any advice as I do feel rather wronged on this occasion.

Thank you in advance.

This post has been edited by HYG: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 20:49
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post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:00
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cp8759
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:12
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QUOTE (HYG @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:00) *
when I entered the box junction the road ahead was clear, the lorry was driving straight ahead, it then decided to turn its wheels to the left and took the space I was due to drive into.

I'm sorry but in my opinion this is not what the video shows. It looks like the HGV when exactly where it always intended to, and it simply came to a halt before you had expected it to, which is not a ground to appeal. Unfortunately I think an adjudicator would come to the same conclusion.

QUOTE (HYG @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:00) *
I am not actually causing traffic problems, so I feel very harshly done by.

Understandable, but also irrelevant. Maybe someone can find a fault with the paperwork, but from the video it looks pretty cut and dried to me.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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HYG
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:26
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@cp8759 Thank you for your reply - do think it is futile to appeal?
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mazzer
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:30
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I agree. Your exit should be clear before you enter the box and it wasn't. There's no more to it than that.
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HYG
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:38
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I'm driving the silver car and when I entered the traffic was flowing - at the lights the HGV was signalling to go right at the round about, therefore the space ahead of me was free - does that not count?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:40
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The PCN has four pages, we need to see all them, leave in date time and location we need to see them. TfL PCN's are historically faulty so could be an avenue there
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HYG
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 15:12
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@PASTMYBEST Thank you - I shall re-scan and update this afternoon.
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cp8759
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 15:15
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QUOTE (HYG @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:26) *
@cp8759 Thank you for your reply - do think it is futile to appeal?

I think it is futile to appeal on the ground that the offence did not occur, because it clearly did. Once you upload the paperwork someone might find some other reason to appeal.


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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 15:18
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Reasonable chance of de minimis as more than half of car out of a large box.

Why you didn't just drive to the left only you know... although your point about having a different view to the camera is one I've often made.

Also, I would say the camera view of this box is not good enough to show traffic positions.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 15:20
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Incandescent
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 17:16
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It seems to me the camera view is flawed as it doesn't show the road beyond the crossing apart from a couple of metres so not showing whether a space is available or not. Also there is no view of vehicles before they enter the box. In addition, the contravention could be considered de minimis. No obstruction to other traffic has occurred at all, and the vehicle is only partly in the box. However such is the greed of TfL for the dosh they will invariably reject an appeal, thus forcing the OP to take the matter to adjudication. Probably a bit of a gamble, at least the discount gives certainty.
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HYG
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 17:20
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All four PCN pages added.
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HYG
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:38
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Any thoughts on errors on the PCN?

Thank you.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:15
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QUOTE (HYG @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:38) *
Any thoughts on errors on the PCN?

Thank you.


Sorry to say that they have put right the errors. nothing there to help you
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HYG
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:44
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@PASTMYBEST Thank you for taking the time to look - it is much appreciated.

In brief - I shall go with the following arguments:

1. When entering the road beyond the box junction was not blocked.
2. The lorry was signalling to go right but then turned into my lane.
3. Camera view is flawed.
4. The ‘de minimus’ argument.

Of course, I shall flesh out the arguments.

If you can think of any other point I would be most grateful.

Thank you.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 12:42
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QUOTE (HYG @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:44) *
@PASTMYBEST Thank you for taking the time to look - it is much appreciated.

In brief - I shall go with the following arguments:

1. When entering the road beyond the box junction was not blocked.
2. The lorry was signalling to go right but then turned into my lane.
3. Camera view is flawed.
4. The ‘de minimus’ argument.

Of course, I shall flesh out the arguments.

If you can think of any other point I would be most grateful.

Thank you.


yes argue that the camera does not give a true perspective of the drivers view, that it was obvious from your position that if the lorry proceeded to the right as its position indicated then there was clear space in your lane. only the change in direction of the lorry cutting across into your path caused the contravention
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HYG
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 22:07
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@Incandescent @PASTMYBEST @stanfordman

Is there any chance this box junction does not conform to regulation?

It has five sides? Is this allowed?

Attached Image


Thank you
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 22:20
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Not that i can see, the 2016 regulations are very relaxed as to design, What matters is that you know its a box junction


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Target+...33;4d-0.3770913
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HYG
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 23:03
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@PASTMYBEST - Ok, thank you - thought it was worth asking.
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HYG
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 09:30
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Found this on the web (document called "300324 LBHF BOX JUNCTION ENFORCEMENT GUIDELINES ver 3.doc") - Does this only apply to the London borough of Hammersmith and Fulham?

There was a section in there which might possibly help with the "de minimus" argument:

"9. On large type box junctions, cars and vans with less than 50% of their length over the box should have discretion applied if they are not an obstruction. On smaller box junctions 25%”grace” would apply as long as they are not an obstruction. An attached list shows which boxes the 50% or 25% rule should be applied to. Some very small/special case box junctions should have 0% discretion. Decisions on Lorries and Buses would be left down to how much of problem they would cause."

Any thoughts?

Thank you.

This post has been edited by HYG: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 09:31
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stamfordman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 09:51
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Yes I sometimes quote that doc - it's from 2007 but gives insight into one council's thinking. It does not apply in any formal sense even in H&F but gives some ammunition.
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