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bus lane contravention pcn
charliesdad
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:41
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Hello All

I might be clutching at straws on this. But I would be grateful if a few knowledgable eyes could look over this and let me know if the signage and administration is correct.

The council have declared the contravention 'Being in a Bus lane' , however I believe as there is not white line of demarcation, that this instance would be entering a Bus Gate. - Are they correct to alledge contravention as being in a bus lane?

I think this is supposed to be a bus gate, so is the signage as shown on google maps correct and sufficient? - It is a google maps screen grab. I intend to visit the location to check the current signage state.

Cant comment on whether the signage was sufficiently illuminated. the time is in the evening during winter, so it would be dark compared to the google map screen grab.

What is the law on liability for this offence? ie - if this was a driving offence that demanded the issue of points, the driver would need to be correctly identified. The paperwork suggests that for this offence the vehicle owner is liable regadles of who is driving. Is that correct? (as an aside, I am always puzzled as to why the vehicle log book states that it is not legal proof of ownership, but when fines are issued, authorities suggest that the name on the log book is the owner??)

I assume that the amount is correct, ive been trying to read the legislation to no avail as yet!

I am not sure who was driving at that time.

I believe I have until 20 jan to be able to pay 50% or to appeal to protect that 'discount'

Thank you for your attention. much apprecated.


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post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:41
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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:51
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The standard contravention wording for bus gates and lanes is 'being in a bus lane'.

It's a decriminalised offence so the only avenue open is to to pursue the registered keeper as that's the only person/company associated with the vehicle. You can always ask someone else to pay it.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:52
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Neil B
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 12:02
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QUOTE (charliesdad @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:41) *
I believe I have until 20 jan to be able to pay 50%

??

16th



QUOTE (charliesdad @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:41) *
or to appeal to protect that 'discount'

Does it 'promise' to re-offer discount?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 12:45
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Unlike parking PCNs attached to the car, bus lane PCNs are issued by post. With the exception of London, where different legislation governs bus lanes, no Notice to Owner is issued after the original PCN, because that goes to the "owner" anyway. The council obtain name and address by requesting the information from the DVLA using an on-line transaction. What this means is that there is no general convention of re-offering the discount if an appeal is submitted. Note that re-offering the discount is not a mandate, merely good practice used by alost all councils when assessing informal appeals to parking PCNs.

Government have been completely supine on the aspect of appeals made within the discount period for bus lane PCNs, there being nothing about it in the Bus Lane Guidance, (which is pretty useless anyway and still in draft since 2008 !!). Nottingham City Council are particularly venal and ruthless about this, and never re-offer the discount. However, Leicester may do, as many councils have belatedly realised that if you don't re-offer the discount, there is no additional cost to the PCN recipient of taking them to adjudication, and this costs them money. If it were me, I'd ask them what their attitude to this is. Note that you have to submit the reps within the discount period for parking PCNs to get a discount re-offer, and the same would apply if a council re-offered it for a bus lane PCN.

Also note that you have the absolute right to pay the discount at any time within the discount period, even if you have submitted an appeal. The moneys must be received by councils within the discount period, , not just sent off.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 13:19
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PCN makes a point of saying, if representations are made and responded to within the discount period, and remaining discount period will apply, but that representations do not stop the clock.

so i would saw they do not re offer
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Neil B
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 13:48
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 13:19) *
PCN makes a point of saying, if representations are made and responded to within the discount period, and remaining discount period will apply, but that representations do not stop the clock.

so i would saw they do not re offer

but have done so in a previous case, so it's a bit of an unknown.

OP needs to address the contravention rather than querying matters of driver/owner/amount/etc.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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HYG
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:08
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Saw this article in the DM today - thought it might prove helpful to you.
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Neil B
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:21
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QUOTE (HYG @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:08) *
Saw this article in the DM today - thought it might prove helpful to you.


Other than generally encouraging to contest, what has a London Bus Stop got to do with a Leicester Bus Lane?

Daily Fail nonsense, applicable to any of 25+ successful adjudications per day!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:23
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (HYG @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:08) *
Saw this article in the DM today - thought it might prove helpful to you.


Other than generally encouraging to contest, what has a London Bus Stop got to do with a Leicester Bus Lane?

Daily Fail nonsense, applicable to any of 25+ successful adjudications per day!


That story is nonsense isn't it - totally confused on the contravention and where it took place as per council saying one thing and adjudicator another...
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Neil B
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 14:42
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My mistake, it was a bus lane, so article 'stopping' is off.

Apparently didn't see this - 4 times https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4207378,-...3312!8i6656

217049876A

I bet his legs were shaking at the hearing.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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charliesdad
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 14:53
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thanks to those that have replied so far.



the discount etc is a moot point unless anyone can suggest that i have a reason to appeal

ie the signage was inadequate or the bus gate is not marked out properly

thanks

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 11:51) *
The standard contravention wording for bus gates and lanes is 'being in a bus lane'.

It's a decriminalised offence so the only avenue open is to to pursue the registered keeper as that's the only person/company associated with the vehicle. You can always ask someone else to pay it.



this makes sense . that they suggest the car has transgressed.

my understanding is that this is a PCN and so at some point in the proceeding, unless the fine is paid, the authority would have to present a notice to owner. Is that incorrect?


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stamfordman
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:02
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QUOTE (charliesdad @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 14:53) *
my understanding is that this is a PCN and so at some point in the proceeding, unless the fine is paid, the authority would have to present a notice to owner. Is that incorrect?



Yes, the notice to owner (NTO) is sent to the person presumed to be the owner, i.e. the registered keeper, but even if someone else actually owns the vehicle the keeper is liable.
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Neil B
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (charliesdad @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 14:53) *
my understanding is that this is a PCN and so at some point in the proceeding, unless the fine is paid, the authority would have to present a notice to owner. Is that incorrect?

YES. INCORRECT.
The PCN IS an NtO, effectively.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:05


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:29
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Yes, it's confusing as outside London there is no NTO/enforcement stage for a bus lane contravention.

You always get an NTO stage for a parking PCN served on the car.
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charliesdad
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 15:32
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Is all their signage corrrect?

As i said at the OP, Im probably clutching at straws to defend this, but can anyone see a defence?

thanks
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spaceman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 16:59
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:02) *
QUOTE (charliesdad @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 14:53) *
my understanding is that this is a PCN and so at some point in the proceeding, unless the fine is paid, the authority would have to present a notice to owner. Is that incorrect?



Yes, the notice to owner (NTO) is sent to the person presumed to be the owner, i.e. the registered keeper, but even if someone else actually owns the vehicle the keeper is liable.


No, no, no! The OWNER is liable. This is PRESUMED to be the registered keeper, but can be rebutted.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:50
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Just to make it clear. There is no Notice To owner for bus lane PCN's outside London, Within London different regulations apply, and they have an intermediate step an Enforcement Notice.

The signs are fine and IMO would be found compliant, There is no issue with the PCN, and no surety that a discount will be re offered. You would be betting on the council messing up.

I would take the discount
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charliesdad
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 16:16
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 17:50) *
Just to make it clear. There is no Notice To owner for bus lane PCN's outside London, Within London different regulations apply, and they have an intermediate step an Enforcement Notice.

The signs are fine and IMO would be found compliant, There is no issue with the PCN, and no surety that a discount will be re offered. You would be betting on the council messing up.

I would take the discount



many thanks for being clear
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