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Goswell Rd Islington vs City of London, Told by CoL wardens OK to park single yellow; Islington then issue PCN
sainthalo
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:05
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I (now understand) that where I parked is on the border between Islington and City of London council (the Goswell Rd / Aldersgate Rd (EDIT: Aldersgate Street EC1) junction).

I could not find any street signage to identify the restricted parking times for the single yellow line.

I saw three wardens (a female and two males). They each wore the same traffic warden uniform which had a peaked black cap with a red band.

I asked all three officers collectively if it was okay to park my car on this single yellow line and pointed to the single yellow line and to my parked car.

The female traffic warden informed me from across the road that it was okay to park my car on a single yellow line. I was stood next to my car.

Around an hour later at 1858 I was issued a PCN by Islington Council.

It seems the female traffic warden mislead me and the two male officers didn't correct her.

As they are all official traffic wardens (whether from Islington or from City of London) it was reasonable and proper for me to believe them.

I couldn't identify the nearest street signage showing the controlled hours for the single yellow line.

Surely there should be street signage identifying controlled hours at the Goswell Rd / Aldersgate Rd junction as it seems it is a border between City of London and Islington and therefore is an entrance point to a zone controlled by Islington?

PCN attached in case of interest.

Location of parking was before the white van in this picture: https://goo.gl/maps/UnixyvfF1tA2

This post has been edited by sainthalo: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 17:55
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post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:05
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stamfordman
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:30
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You weren't near Aldersgate but must have have been further up Goswell Road where it is a boundary between Islington and CoL.

Islington made zone C mostly a 24 hour zone last year.

What route did you take to park and where exactly did you park (show on Google Street View). The zone entry signs may be missing or confusing especially where two zones meet in the middle fo the road.
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Jo Carn
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 17:08
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I'm trying to understand where you were although for now, I have a certain sympathy. The signs near Aldersgate and Old Street show the "Borough of Finsbury" on the Islington sign. If you are not familiar with the area... If you were near Aldersgate then one side of the road has parking permissable after 11.00a.m. on a Saturday and the other side doesn't show te the borough you are in.

Need to know where you were parked
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 17:56
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Boundary roads are alluded to here:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/125

It seems there is no agreement between the two authorities and a differential system in place.

My view on the two silent CEOs on that side of the street is that you asked the question and in the absence of a reply took it as read that it was permissible to park. Their clear duty was to ask you to move on which they did not. Entrapment---abuse of process--who knows?

Mick
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sainthalo
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 17:56
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Thanks for the replies!

It's actually Goswell Rd / Aldersgate Street EC1 junction.

Location of parking was before the white van in this picture: https://goo.gl/maps/UnixyvfF1tA2
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stamfordman
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 18:26
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And your route was? If you came from the south you will have passed a CPZ sign just before that no doubt now has the new zone C times:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5211203,-...3312!8i6656

If you came from the north you will have passed a CoL sign on your left but it's more likely you came from the south.

to be clear - you asked two CEOs on the Islington side?
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Jo Carn
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:43
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If you approached on the Islington side then I'm puzzled.
firstly, there is no way of knowing you are in Isligton.
Secondly, if the sign on Google is correct, restrictions end at 1.30 on a Saturday but you got the ticket on Saturday evening.

What have I missed?
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DancingDad
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:51
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Dunno about entrapment but I'd certainly be including "acting on the authority of uniformed CEOs"
That alone is sufficient to win it as long as an adjudicator believes you.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:53
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QUOTE (Jo Carn @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:43) *
What have I missed?


As I said zone C has new times so that sign will have been changed (I expect).

We need the exact story on the route and where he spoke to the CEOs from the OP.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 11:55
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superkoreanzombi...
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:00
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I can confirm that particular area has changed it’s restriction/ times. My friend lives right there and recently got a pcn visitkmg his own mum on a Sunday I believe/ he’s parked there on and off for numerous yrs

As for the 3 wardens, unless u have their badge numbers it would be pointless mentioning it in any appeal. I’ve tried that and the council asked me to provide proof
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DancingDad
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:12
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QUOTE (superkoreanzombie @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:00) *
......As for the 3 wardens, unless u have their badge numbers it would be pointless mentioning it in any appeal. I’ve tried that and the council asked me to provide proof


Not useless.
Council will not accept (or at least unlikely to) even with badge numbers.
But adjudicators will if they believe the appellant.
Mentioning it now, at informal stage and keep repeating it helps cement that credibility.
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superkoreanzombi...
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:21
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 14:12) *
QUOTE (superkoreanzombie @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:00) *
......As for the 3 wardens, unless u have their badge numbers it would be pointless mentioning it in any appeal. I’ve tried that and the council asked me to provide proof


Not useless.
Council will not accept (or at least unlikely to) even with badge numbers.
But adjudicators will if they believe the appellant.
Mentioning it now, at informal stage and keep repeating it helps cement that credibility.


Oh yes sorry I didn’t know that- I only got as far as the council on that part. Thanks
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:29
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QUOTE (superkoreanzombie @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:21) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 14:12) *
QUOTE (superkoreanzombie @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:00) *
......As for the 3 wardens, unless u have their badge numbers it would be pointless mentioning it in any appeal. I’ve tried that and the council asked me to provide proof


Not useless.
Council will not accept (or at least unlikely to) even with badge numbers.
But adjudicators will if they believe the appellant.
Mentioning it now, at informal stage and keep repeating it helps cement that credibility.


Oh yes sorry I didn’t know that- I only got as far as the council on that part. Thanks


Look at the file of case to assist arguments thread at the top of the forum. There are many cases in there where motorists have acted on assurances from a CEO
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DancingDad
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:38
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At the moment, I see a motorist who for whatever reason, missed the signage which may or may not have been in place.
So took a common sense approach to whether or not it was lawful to park.
They asked not one but a group of CEOs and was told you can park there.
This to me is the primary point.

If errors in signage or confusion on location due to invisible border lines can be found they can be used.
And should be.
But IMO as an "after finding the PCN I did some research and .... "
And can bolster the "I was confused so asked..."

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:09
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recent case, similar circumstances

2170543208

I heard from the appellant when she attended on 6 January.
It was she that park the car on the day restricted.
She told me how she was attending first registration at Saturday language school for her five-year-old. This was at 9 am and she had not previously parked in the street.
She gave evidence of consulting a patrolling officer who indicated that it was permissible at park on a Saturday.
It is now apparent that it was not and the officer who ticketed the car correctly identified the Saturday single yellow line restrictions as being in force.
The appellant wrote in and there was recorded delivery to what I believe was the correct address. I have seen the post office receipt for one reason or another the Council has been unable to trace or track.
The appellant argued principally for an extension of the initial discount. The initial discount was not extended as Council staff appear to have been unaware of early representations. The appellant effectively apologised for not keeping a copy of these and she recognises she says she should have done. They were I believe written while she was at work at the major teaching hospital where she has a responsible managerial position.
I was interested to hear from that that on a later Saturday she spoke again with the officer who she says misinformed her on the date with which we are here concerned. She says that he remembered and after some reluctance, effectively apologised. She does not criticise the officer of seeking to trick her. She was with a child and would have been respectful to him.
She has struck me as being a wholly reliable witness in relation to the misinformation that she received. Although her appeal to me was presented essentially with the focus on the opportunity to pay at the lower rate I have decided that her case is strong enough for complete cancellation of the penalty charge. I have reached this conclusion on the basis of crucial misinformation from the patrolling officer. I recognise that it is very easy to blame a patrolling officer for misinformation and I am well aware in this Tribunal that there are motorists who claim this in a bogus way. As I have said I have accepted the appellant explanation and version of events and believe this appeal must thus properly recorded as allowed.
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DancingDad
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:17
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:09) *
recent case, similar circumstances

2170543208.........


Credibility !
The adjudicator believed, if they do, they will find in favour.
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stamfordman
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:20
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:09) *
recent case,



Interesting how these appeals are like mini life stories. We can pretty much deduce the busy days of the appellant.

Have to say it probably helps to be at a "major teaching hospital where she has a responsible managerial position"...

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:28
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DancingDad
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:32
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:20) *
....Have to say it probably helps to be at a "major teaching hospital where she has a responsible managerial position"...


And can express herself intelligibly (or presumably so)

I have often thought that many cases are lost as the appellant cannot express (and sometimes even understand) the fine points of the law that are put forward.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 08:52
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I know I march out of step at times and have a habit of challenging OPs' posts for reasons of clarity, but how in heaven's name could anyone hold a conversation with anyone on the other side of this busy road at 7pm on a Saturday given the inevitable traffic noise?

And as the OP asked 'all three officers collectively' and as we know that the female officer was on the other side of the road, then were all three on the other side?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 09:04
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No you are not out of step - I said earlier:

We need the exact story on the route and where he spoke to the CEOs from the OP.
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