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Suspended bay PCN help
chopperferrari
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:56
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Hi,

I parked in a bay in the City Of London on the 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked (although there are some in the pictures they have taken, but can't be seen them in relation to my car), I looked at the meter, while I was parking out of charging hours there was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. When I returned to my car I had received a ticket. Can anyone help me appeal this as it doesn't seem that the signage was correct?

The code is PCN 21.








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post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:56
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hcandersen
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:19
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There's no parking meter involved, you parked in a P&D parking place divided into separate bays.

I can see a traffic sign by HD16. This refers to P&D 24/7 and indicates where the ticket machine is to be found. I cannot see whether this refers to a suspension within the parking place. I can also see what appears to be a suspension sign on the wall to the rear of the footway adjacent to HD10 where you were parked. I can see HD10 as apparently being the first bay within the parking place which is adjacent to a disabled bay.

What I cannot see is the ticket machine and what I want to know is:

Do ALL traffic signs situated within the parking place carry information regarding the suspension? They are required to do so.

Where is the ticket machine and does it carry info regarding the suspension.

IMO, you should not focus exclusively on the suspension sign. This is is not a unique situation: you have a multi-bay parking place in which one or more bays is suspended and therefore ALL traffic signs within the parking place must carry this information because the discrete unit is the parking place, not the bay.
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chopperferrari
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:52
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 08:19) *
There's no parking meter involved, you parked in a P&D parking place divided into separate bays.

I can see a traffic sign by HD16. This refers to P&D 24/7 and indicates where the ticket machine is to be found. I cannot see whether this refers to a suspension within the parking place. I can also see what appears to be a suspension sign on the wall to the rear of the footway adjacent to HD10 where you were parked. I can see HD10 as apparently being the first bay within the parking place which is adjacent to a disabled bay.

What I cannot see is the ticket machine and what I want to know is:

Do ALL traffic signs situated within the parking place carry information regarding the suspension? They are required to do so.

Where is the ticket machine and does it carry info regarding the suspension.

IMO, you should not focus exclusively on the suspension sign. This is is not a unique situation: you have a multi-bay parking place in which one or more bays is suspended and therefore ALL traffic signs within the parking place must carry this information because the discrete unit is the parking place, not the bay.


1. From memory it's the only traffic sign visible

2. The ticket machine is at the end of the run of bays (maybe 4 bays away)
Here is a pick of the meter.

vlcsnap-2018-01-11-11h47m08s848 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/158731047@N08/

This post has been edited by chopperferrari: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 11:53
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hcandersen
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:12
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So..

On parking you would see the road markings - you always start with markings when they're present. These put you on notice that restrictions and permissions of some sort apply. You are required to look for a traffic sign which conveys these restrictions.

So, you exit your van and walk towards the ticket machine and you notice a traffic sign further on. You go the that sign - HD16- which does not refer to a suspension but instead informs you that the parking place is P&D 24/7. You go to the machine and purchase a ticket, the machine not conveying any other info (I'm guessing regarding charging being in effect because the photo doesn't show this info. I've seen hundreds of P&D machines, so I don't want to see a photo of another, what I need is the instructions contained within it!)

You place your ticket in your vehicle and leave.

The sign on the wall by HD10 is totally irrelevant to these proceedings. Big sign, small sign, authorised, approved or whatever. Who cares, it's not relevant. So let's not get hoodwinked into thinking it's the centre of this issue, it could be totally irrelevant.

So, could we have further info - not guesswork pl, but facts - regarding what is stated on the machine and how many traffic signs are situated within the parking place.

Of course, if you've already acknowledged that you saw and read the HD10 sign, this rather weakens your case, but not necessarily fatally.
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chopperferrari
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 16:18
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 15:12) *
So..

On parking you would see the road markings - you always start with markings when they're present. These put you on notice that restrictions and permissions of some sort apply. You are required to look for a traffic sign which conveys these restrictions.

So, you exit your van and walk towards the ticket machine and you notice a traffic sign further on. You go the that sign - HD16- which does not refer to a suspension but instead informs you that the parking place is P&D 24/7. You go to the machine and purchase a ticket, the machine not conveying any other info (I'm guessing regarding charging being in effect because the photo doesn't show this info. I've seen hundreds of P&D machines, so I don't want to see a photo of another, what I need is the instructions contained within it!)

You place your ticket in your vehicle and leave.

The sign on the wall by HD10 is totally irrelevant to these proceedings. Big sign, small sign, authorised, approved or whatever. Who cares, it's not relevant. So let's not get hoodwinked into thinking it's the centre of this issue, it could be totally irrelevant.

So, could we have further info - not guesswork pl, but facts - regarding what is stated on the machine and how many traffic signs are situated within the parking place.

Of course, if you've already acknowledged that you saw and read the HD10 sign, this rather weakens your case, but not necessarily fatally.


Thanks -

There seems to be some confusion...

1. It was out of charging hours for P&D (7.30pm).

2. I looked for signs - I couldn't see any (i did not see the HD10 sign one the wall next to Starbucks - I've never seen a sign mounted like this before) So headed to look at the machine.

3. The photo of the machine was taken when returning to my car - as you can see it has no suspension information on it.

4. I'd have to return to the location to confirm the number of parking sign, one the night after I received the ticket I explored and couldn't see any other signage, and the machine just had normal operational information.


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hcandersen
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 17:08
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Fine. Perhaps one our contributor cohort lives near or has up to date info.

The P&D sign is 24/7, therefore some type of restriction has to apply 24/7. If it's not P&D, it would be something else. It can't be maximum stay because they'd be no way to set the start time (unless you obtain a free ticket). Perhaps it's a no return limit. But if so, this must be stated on ALL traffic signs, not just the machine. And it's NOT on the HD10 sign.

Curiouser and curiouser but it adds to the circumstantial evidence that the suspension is not displayed at all places where it is required.

Anyway, we must see your challenge now.

I'm firming my position that the traffic signage is pants. See the sign near HD10, the suspension states that parking is still available in *** and I'm now becoming surer that the traffic signs there do not reciprocate i.e. they do not carry info on the suspension. It's as if the sign applies only to those bays.

Wrong!
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chopperferrari
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:12
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 17:08) *
Fine. Perhaps one our contributor cohort lives near or has up to date info.

The P&D sign is 24/7, therefore some type of restriction has to apply 24/7. If it's not P&D, it would be something else. It can't be maximum stay because they'd be no way to set the start time (unless you obtain a free ticket). Perhaps it's a no return limit. But if so, this must be stated on ALL traffic signs, not just the machine. And it's NOT on the HD10 sign.

Curiouser and curiouser but it adds to the circumstantial evidence that the suspension is not displayed at all places where it is required.

Anyway, we must see your challenge now.

I'm firming my position that the traffic signage is pants. See the sign near HD10, the suspension states that parking is still available in *** and I'm now becoming surer that the traffic signs there do not reciprocate i.e. they do not carry info on the suspension. It's as if the sign applies only to those bays.

Wrong!



Thanks - here is my letter draft, any thoughts would be most welcome.

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation for traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, screwed to the wall outside a Starbucks, isn't visible unless viewed faced head-on, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, large, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6) The relationship of the suspension sign to my car is not shown in the evidence provided.

7) The suspension information is not displayed in anything location, other street signs or on the parking meter.

Taking into account the points raised above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 10:43
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OP----that looks fine. I would add that in investigating this matter you find that there is overwhelming evidence that these small wall mounted signs have been ruled inadequate on a consistent basis at adjudication. Therefore I would ask that CoL explain why it feels it can enforce suspensions in this manner against a legitimate expectation that signage should comply with Reg18 The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 :-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1268339

Case Reference:Adjudicator
2160435978 Gerald Styles
2160444753 Edward Houghton
2160341670 Edward Houghton
2140130184 Edward Houghton
2160346142 Carl Teper
216037270A Mamta Parekh
2160446136 Carl Teper
2160042614 Edward Houghton
2160047039 Edward Houghton
2160078305 Christopher Rayner
2160128196 Edward Houghton
2160153422 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160160993 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160236199 Andrew Harman
2150281277 Neeti Haria)

Mick
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DancingDad
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 11:00
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QUOTE
I check the street posts and the meter was operational....


Make the above ....
I checked the signs on street posts, there were no suspension signs. The meter was operational....
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chopperferrari
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:49
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Thanks, guys you're fantastic. smile.gif

Here's my final draft I will send tonight - if you have any final thoughts that please let me know.

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I checked the signs on street posts, there were no suspension signs. The meter was operational... So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation for traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, screwed to the wall outside a Starbucks, isn't visible unless viewed when faced head on, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, large, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6) The relationship of the suspension sign to my car is not shown in the evidence provided.

7) The suspension information is not displayed in any other location, other street signs or on the parking meter.

8) Investigating this matter I find that there is overwhelming evidence that these small wall mounted signs have been ruled inadequate on a consistent basis at adjudication. Can City of London please explain why it feels it can enforce suspensions in this manner against a legitimate expectation that signage should comply with RE18 The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1268339

Case Reference: Adjudicator
2160435978 Gerald Styles
2160444753 Edward Houghton
2160341670 Edward Houghton
2140130184 Edward Houghton
2160346142 Carl Teper
216037270A Mamta Parekh
2160446136 Carl Teper
2160042614 Edward Houghton
2160047039 Edward Houghton
2160078305 Christopher Rayner
2160128196 Edward Houghton
2160153422 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160160993 Sean Stanton-Dunne
2160236199 Andrew Harman
2150281277 Neeti Haria)

Taking into account the points raised above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,

This post has been edited by chopperferrari: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:52
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 13:32
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OP--take the hyperlink out --that's was just for your benefit-- the http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1268339 bit.

Mick
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chopperferrari
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 13:33
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Thanks Mick.
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chopperferrari
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:25
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Hi Everyone,


Sadly I received this response today

"Thank you for your communication in relation to the above PCN.
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was seen parked at a payment parking bay, which had been suspended. Suspended payment parking bays within the City are indicated by wall or post mounted notices stating “Parking Suspension – No Waiting, No Loading, No Unloading – At Any Time”.
The conditions of use plate on all payment machines advise you that; “You are liable to receive a PCN if you: – park on any part of a suspended payment parking bay or place at any time. You must check for additional signs at the time of parking”.
In this particular case the suspension notice forms part of the payment parking bay designation sign. The reason for this is because it is reasonable to expect drivers to check the designation of the payment parking bay in which they wish to park - disabled, loading, payment parking bay or otherwise. You will note that the attached photographs taken at the time that the PCN was issued show the actual suspension notice fixed in the manner I have described. You will also note that the suspension notice clearly sets out the extent and duration of the suspension.
The City chooses to advertise on streeet suspensions by placing notices at the relevant bay or parking place. A ‘notice’ is not a ‘traffic sign’ and as such there is no requirement that it be authorised or be compliant with any diagram in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002/2004.
Therefore, having carefully considered the reasons for your challenge and the evidence before me, I am not prepared to cancel the PCN on this occasion."

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:28
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QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:25) *
Hi Everyone,


Sadly I received this response today

"Thank you for your communication in relation to the above PCN.
The PCN was issued because the vehicle was seen parked at a payment parking bay, which had been suspended. Suspended payment parking bays within the City are indicated by wall or post mounted notices stating “Parking Suspension – No Waiting, No Loading, No Unloading – At Any Time”.
The conditions of use plate on all payment machines advise you that; “You are liable to receive a PCN if you: – park on any part of a suspended payment parking bay or place at any time. You must check for additional signs at the time of parking”.
In this particular case the suspension notice forms part of the payment parking bay designation sign. The reason for this is because it is reasonable to expect drivers to check the designation of the payment parking bay in which they wish to park - disabled, loading, payment parking bay or otherwise. You will note that the attached photographs taken at the time that the PCN was issued show the actual suspension notice fixed in the manner I have described. You will also note that the suspension notice clearly sets out the extent and duration of the suspension.
The City chooses to advertise on streeet suspensions by placing notices at the relevant bay or parking place. A ‘notice’ is not a ‘traffic sign’ and as such there is no requirement that it be authorised or be compliant with any diagram in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002/2004.
Therefore, having carefully considered the reasons for your challenge and the evidence before me, I am not prepared to cancel the PCN on this occasion."


Post up all of the actual letter not a transcription. They have been castigated in the past for that response.
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chopperferrari
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 11:38
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Ok, that's good news!

Letter attached. Attached File  18873B69CC114.PDF ( 1.26MB ) Number of downloads: 25
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chopperferrari
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:18
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Hi All,

Anyone have any thoughts on this - should i just suck it up and pay it?

Attached letter above.

Thanks,
Ben
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stamfordman
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:21
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No brainer to take it to the tribunal as discount is lost.
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chopperferrari
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:32
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Ok cool. Does that mean that if I lose at tribunal I just pay the fine? or do I get charged other costs?
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DancingDad
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:40
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QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:32) *
Ok cool. Does that mean that if I lose at tribunal I just pay the fine? or do I get charged other costs?


Only just caught up with this one.
Yes, most you will ever pay is the penalty...as long as you meet deadlines.

I am a little concerned that you chose to ignore HCA points on signage, to me that one is solid and not open to interpretation
Within any parking space a motorist has a duty to check restrictions and are entitled to rely on the first sign they see.
If that does not carry a suspension sign, the council cannot be said to have adequately signed the restriction.
If you parked, looked along row of bays and saw a sign (by HC16?), checked that, checked P&D machine for how much to pay and found it free to park at that time, there is little more that you could be reasonably expected to do.
Even if you parked up, ignored all signs and only checked after the event, one sign without suspension (out of two in the bay) is all that is needed to render the suspension sign inadequate.

Not too late to add this now but will need some evidence that the sign didn't have a suspension sign on it.
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chopperferrari
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:02
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:40) *
QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:32) *
Ok cool. Does that mean that if I lose at tribunal I just pay the fine? or do I get charged other costs?


Only just caught up with this one.
Yes, most you will ever pay is the penalty...as long as you meet deadlines.

I am a little concerned that you chose to ignore HCA points on signage, to me that one is solid and not open to interpretation
Within any parking space a motorist has a duty to check restrictions and are entitled to rely on the first sign they see.
If that does not carry a suspension sign, the council cannot be said to have adequately signed the restriction.
If you parked, looked along row of bays and saw a sign (by HC16?), checked that, checked P&D machine for how much to pay and found it free to park at that time, there is little more that you could be reasonably expected to do.
Even if you parked up, ignored all signs and only checked after the event, one sign without suspension (out of two in the bay) is all that is needed to render the suspension sign inadequate.

Not too late to add this now but will need some evidence that the sign didn't have a suspension sign on it.


Thanks - can you clarify what you mean by HCA points? Something missing from my original letter? (when I parked I couldn't see any signs, obviously, they have taken a photo of the wall mounted sign, I didn't see it despite my looking around.)
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DancingDad
post Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:08
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QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 14:02) *
.........Thanks - can you clarify what you mean by HCA points? Something missing from my original letter? (when I parked I couldn't see any signs, obviously, they have taken a photo of the wall mounted sign, I didn't see it despite my looking around.)


Posts 21 onwards

I don't know how valid they are as have not double checked but it seems you went back to do so.
If the sign that HCA reckons is at HC16 had no suspension sign, that was you home and dry even if council rejected.
But now relies on whether or not you can show it didn't have one.
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