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Suspended bay PCN help
chopperferrari
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:56
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Hi,

I parked in a bay in the City Of London on the 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked (although there are some in the pictures they have taken, but can't be seen them in relation to my car), I looked at the meter, while I was parking out of charging hours there was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. When I returned to my car I had received a ticket. Can anyone help me appeal this as it doesn't seem that the signage was correct?

The code is PCN 21.








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post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:56
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stamfordman
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:59
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We've had a lot of these - City has a track record of putting up these tiny suspension signs. In this case it's an amazing 2 year suspension which must be suspect - surely they should remove the bay. Mad Mick is the expert on these and I'm sure will be along.
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chopperferrari
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:29
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Thank you for the speedy reply - I hope Mad Mick can help me with this smile.gif
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Chaseman
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:42
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Here's the authorised suspension sign as per the DfT website:

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3520.pdf

You will notice two aspects:

1. The sign as erected looks absolutely nothing like the authorised version, which has simply been cribbed from RBKC. The latter is triangular, with "wings" that make it visible from all directions, whereas the erected sign is simply a flat plate. The wording on the sign is completely different to the auth version.

2. In para 3 of the authorisation, it is clear that a sign may not be erected for longer than 12 months. When you were nicked it had already been up for 18 months and was purporting to suspend for very nearly two years.

See what others say, but I can't see an adjudicator upholding this PCN. In any case, it looks as though you are well past the period in which you could have paid at a discount, so there is nothing to be lost by fighting all the way to LTs. You can't be fined any more if you lose.


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Chaseman
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stamfordman
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:51
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+1

Is the car registered at your address. They will send a notice to owner to the registered address.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:17
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Have to careful on these at present given this rather dumbfounding Decision, which CoL is sure to quote, as allowing this type of signage:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1317822

I am still utterly pi$$ed by that Decision more so by the failure of a Review which featured a cast iron procedural impropriety.

Anyhow, the structure of any representation will be on the basis of post 3 of the above case plus the wholly unreasonable suspension period.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:19
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chopperferrari
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 16:24
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Hi Everyone, thanks so much for your help.

Will a casual letter stating the points raised by Chaseman in post 3 be suitable, or do I need to get a legal style template on the go?

Thanks,
Ben
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Chaseman
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 17:26
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QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 16:24) *
Hi Everyone, thanks so much for your help.

Will a casual letter stating the points raised by Chaseman in post 3 be suitable, or do I need to get a legal style template on the go?

Thanks,
Ben


Challenges/appeals are not legal documents, they just need to be drafted clearly and succinctly to get across the points you are making with references back to rules, regulations or previous cases as necessary.
Don't get angry or aggressive, just state your points objectively. I would suggest you have a go at drafting a letter and post up here for comment. Points to make IMHO are:

1. A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2. CoL has had such a sign approved - quote the reference/date

3. I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - and give the main areas of difference

4. As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of suspending parking. If CoL has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5. The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos [these are the authority's photos?] the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6. I therefore request cancellation of the PCN.

Love and kisses
Ben

BTW, I take it you have not yet received a NTO? It's probably on the way as you were ticketed (it seems) on 30 Nov. Could you also post up a full picture of the PCN, both sides, with PCN number and car reg obscured (although this is already apparent from the photos).


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Chaseman
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chopperferrari
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:35
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QUOTE (Chaseman @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 17:26) *
Challenges/appeals are not legal documents, they just need to be drafted clearly and succinctly to get across the points you are making with references back to rules, regulations or previous cases as necessary.
Don't get angry or aggressive, just state your points objectively. I would suggest you have a go at drafting a letter and post up here for comment. Points to make IMHO are:

1. A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2. CoL has had such a sign approved - quote the reference/date

3. I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - and give the main areas of difference

4. As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of suspending parking. If CoL has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5. The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos [these are the authority's photos?] the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

6. I therefore request cancellation of the PCN.

Love and kisses
Ben

BTW, I take it you have not yet received a NTO? It's probably on the way as you were ticketed (it seems) on 30 Nov. Could you also post up a full picture of the PCN, both sides, with PCN number and car reg obscured (although this is already apparent from the photos).


Thanks so much! I received the NTO this morning - please see pictures below.









This post has been edited by chopperferrari: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:36
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chopperferrari
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:56
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Hi Guys,


Here's my first go at drafting a letter - some feeback would be ace smile.gif

Dear City of London,

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation fo traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of suspending parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

Taking into account the three points above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,

This post has been edited by chopperferrari: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:58
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 17:13
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QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:56) *
Hi Guys,


Here's my first go at drafting a letter - some feeback would be ace smile.gif

Dear City of London,

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation fo traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

Taking into account the three points above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,


Add/amend the bit in red
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chopperferrari
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:18
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 17:13) *
QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:56) *
Hi Guys,


Here's my first go at drafting a letter - some feeback would be ace smile.gif

Dear City of London,

I parked in a bay on 30th of November, I couldn't see any parking suspension signs from where I parked, I check the street posts and the meter was operational and confirmed that I was parked out of charging hours, the was meter was uncovered and had no signs on it. So when I returned to my car later that evening I was very surprised I had received a PCN ticket.

On assessing the PCN notice and the evidence provided by City of London I have established that the following criteria have not been met.

1) A temporary parking suspension sign needs specific DfT approval as such a sign does not appear in TSRGD.

2) City of London has had such a sign approved - Road traffic regulation Act 1984 - Sections 64 and 65 authorisation fo traffic signs and special directions GT50/027/0013-1 - date approved 7th of August 2012.

3) I note that the signage as erected bears no similarity to the approved sign - the sign as erected has been cribbed from RBKC, is flat, and the wording is completely different from the authorised sign. The authorised sign is triangular, with wings that make it visible from all directions.

4) As the erected sign is not of the approved sort I contend that it is inadequate to have the effect of notifying the motorist of suspending/ed parking. If City of London has an approved sign, why has it not been used?

5) The approval for the temporary parking suspension sign makes clear at para 3 of that approval that such signage may not be erected for a period longer than 12 months. As you will see from the photos (provided by the City of London) the signage at the bay where I was issued a PCN purports to suspend the bay for 23 months and had already been in situ for 18 months at the relevant time. I contend that this extended period is specifically outlawed by the authorisation and hence renders the parking suspension unenforceable.

Taking into account the three points above I, therefore, request cancellation of the PCN.

Thank you very much for your time,


Add/amend the bit in red



Thanks!


All good to go?
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DancingDad
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:46
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:17) *
Have to careful on these at present given this rather dumbfounding Decision, which CoL is sure to quote, as allowing this type of signage:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1317822

I am still utterly pi$$ed by that Decision more so by the failure of a Review which featured a cast iron procedural impropriety.

Anyhow, the structure of any representation will be on the basis of post 3 of the above case plus the wholly unreasonable suspension period.

Mick


Missed that decision.
Can anyone point me to diagram 640.1 in TSRGD 2016 ?????

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:50
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:46) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 14:17) *
Have to careful on these at present given this rather dumbfounding Decision, which CoL is sure to quote, as allowing this type of signage:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1317822

I am still utterly pi$$ed by that Decision more so by the failure of a Review which featured a cast iron procedural impropriety.

Anyhow, the structure of any representation will be on the basis of post 3 of the above case plus the wholly unreasonable suspension period.

Mick


Missed that decision.
Can anyone point me to diagram 640.1 in TSRGD 2016 ?????



Schedule 13 part 6 item 22
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DancingDad
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:52
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:50) *
........Schedule 13 part 6 item 22

Ta
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 17:40
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It's only use is for a cowl over a ticket machine and the adjudicator was IMO wrong to suggest it's use was proper or that it could substitute for a DfT approved parking suspension sign.

Mick
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hcandersen
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 09:00
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Where are the photos?

Normally:
Meter means single bay;
Meter can be a traffic sign;
In such cases there would not be any obligation to look for any traffic sign beyond the meter.

So, that another and apparently contradictory sign was present might not be the issue!
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chopperferrari
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:23
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Photo have disappeared - apparently i need to upgrade my pepipoo account - anyone know a solution to this?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:34
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QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:23) *
Photo have disappeared - apparently i need to upgrade my pepipoo account - anyone know a solution to this?



No it's Photobucket - it's crap. Try another pic site such as Flickr or Imgur.


This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:34
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chopperferrari
post Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 22:33
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:34) *
QUOTE (chopperferrari @ Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 16:23) *
Photo have disappeared - apparently i need to upgrade my pepipoo account - anyone know a solution to this?



No it's Photobucket - it's crap. Try another pic site such as Flickr or Imgur.


Thanks!



IMG_0162

IMG_0163

GetImage.aspx

GetImage.aspx-6

GetImage.aspx-5

GetImage.aspx-4

GetImage.aspx-3



This post has been edited by chopperferrari: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 22:36
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