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Camden Mobile Payment? Already paid by machine but PCN?! Help 2 appeal, PCN for not paying by mobile, yet paid for parking - is this correct?
pimlico35
post Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 22:50
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Hi folks,

I received a surprise PCN this week for parking in a bay (where I previously paid for parking there using the parking machine; cash) - the PCN says its because its mobile phone payment only.

Im a bit shocked for these reasons:

Ive parked here or nearby bays since July 2017 and never received any PCNs - I paid for parking using the machine (I always use).
I dont always have my mobile with me.
There are a few areas around here where you can use the machine to pay for parking, why I should be disadvantaged by not using mobile phone does not seem right.

I am going to appeal, as they will see that I have paid for parking, that I use this or a machine close by to park in the public parking bays.

On another note, now having checked and photographed the machine & signage plus another area where I regularly park - it is quite misleading; for example in another bay I use each week there is a parking machine where i pay for parking using cash, the sign close to that states mobile payments but does not mention the option to pay by machine which is a couple of feet from it. It seems deliberately misleading plus the signs are high up so not very user friendly.

anyone with any advice or similar experience please let me know as I want to appeal in the next couple of days.

Many thanks
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post Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 22:50
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DancingDad
post Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 22:59
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Post up the PCN please
And a location (streetview) and any photos you have of the signs.
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pimlico35
post Fri, 15 Dec 2017 - 23:50
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Pics:




Other signs & parking meter used:




Streetview: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Mansfie...33;4d-0.1545582
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 00:57
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This seems to be where the white van is shown in your pics, not sure about the VW position.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5533879,-...3312!8i6656
Certainly seems like mixed messages, restriction sign is clear enough "Pay by Phone" but then to have a payment machine right alongside in same bay ?

I wonder if they have updated their Traffic Orders to reflect only paying by phone ?
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 09:00
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Traffic Orders here:-

https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/trans...t-kentish-town/

I would take this to adjudication just on the juxtaposition of sign and ticket machine--totally confusing.

I cannot see that the traffic orders impose an exclusive pay by phone situation but maybe I am misreading.

The other issue, of course, is whether any UK Council can impose this sort of condition. I can see how special bays for doctors or businesses have credence but giving phone users priority in a bog standard parking bay must breach the equality legislation and the ECHR.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 09:51
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Ooooh, so used to London Councils not having traffic orders readily available, didn't look.
Thanks MMV smile.gif

Article 12, specifically 12.4 to 12.5 refers to how the charge can be paid.
I cannot see anything that restricts to only PBP, cash is a valid alternative.

I assume that the P&D ticket was displayed and visible ?

Can't read the PCN either, What is the exact wording on the contravention please ?
All I can make out is summat about mobile phone payment.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 09:53
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pimlico35
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 12:18
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Hi,

Many thanks; just to answer questions:

1. No P&D ticket as the machine "assures" that payment has been made & no receipt necessary.
2. Where the car was parked Southampton Road; its on the junction with Mansfield Road. The pole displaying Mobile Payments only is on Southampton Rd (Im not sure if this is a new sign but previously I paid at the machine on mansfield road as it was the closest machine).
3. where the van is parked is Mansfield Rd & has the ticket machine beside it. [ the notice on the pole is very high up so anyone small in stature has a job trying to read the details!)

I cant see in the TMO where it can ONLY be a mobile payment; seems unreasonable. I see some other motorist got a ticket the other day at the same bay; presumably they had been using the machine as they had before.

I would appeal on the grounds that signage and machines are misleading in that vicinity and also that a precedent had been set as I had continued to use this method of payment for almost 1 year. their records will show from the machines that I had paid twice each week for parking since May/June so it wasnt that I didnt want to pay.

any thoughts? Ive uploaded slightly clearer images.

thanks

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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 14:07
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OP---did you have to input your VRM when you paid?

Mick
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pimlico35
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 17:35
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Hi Mick,

Yes - input VRM each time - so records go back to May 2017. So theres proof that I had paid.
thanks
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hcandersen
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:48
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The sign does not require the display of a ticket, therefore the ONLY issue, and it is the only issue, in the context of the alleged contravention is whether the parking charge was paid.

So, what evidence do you have?

None of a physical nature, your case rests wholly on your claim to have paid the correct parking charge in to the machine.

Can we focus on this please. For example, did you have to enter your reg no? If not, how can you prove you paid the charge?
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:06
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The full contravention description stated on the PCN seems to be unauthorised.

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/20848

Could be used a leverage.

This post has been edited by Bogsy: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:07
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:25
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I've been bouncing back and forth in the Traffic Order (Schedules seem very light to me but putting that to one side)
The contravention stated is non payment of the parking charge.
The order takes display of ticket or display on CEO handheld as evidence of payment
We know there would be no ticket but that VRM is input.
Which comes down to CEO handheld did not show the payment for some reason
Or wrong VRM?

Apart from computer glitch, the only reason I can see that could mean the handheld did not show payment is possibly on location.
The signs in Mansfield where paid and in Southampton where parked seem to show different locations for PBP payment.
Whether this would create the no show, no idea.

Differing locations could mean different payment amount required. Which is why I was looking in schedules.
Looks to be same across wide areas so should not be a problem, just cannot confirm at moment.

Cannot discount wrong VRM

To me this comes down to a challenge that you did pay, ask (demand) that they check their records for your VRM or one similar at relevant time (One digit or letter adrift)
See what comes back.

QUOTE (Bogsy @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:06) *
The full contravention description stated on the PCN seems to be unauthorised.

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/20848

Could be used a leverage.


I was wondering on that but came down on substantially compliant with the mobile phone bit after the hyphen, which adds an explanation without changing the contravention wording.
Obviously not strictly compliant but ??
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:31
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:25) *
I was wondering on that but came down on substantially compliant with the mobile phone bit after the hyphen, which adds an explanation without changing the contravention wording.
Obviously not strictly compliant but ??


I don't disagree but worth throwing in to the mix as it gives a sympathetic adjudicator something to latch on to. Neither of the suffixes directly refer to moblie phone parking so this bit is the council's own invention.

This post has been edited by Bogsy: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:34
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:41
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QUOTE (Bogsy @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:31) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:25) *
I was wondering on that but came down on substantially compliant with the mobile phone bit after the hyphen, which adds an explanation without changing the contravention wording.
Obviously not strictly compliant but ??


I don't disagree but worth throwing in to the mix as it gives a sympathetic adjudicator something to latch on to. Neither of the suffixes directly refer to moblie phone parking so this bit is the council's own invention.


Certainly agree to toss it into the mix should it progress to next stage and beyond.
Wouldn't at moment as I hope council will find a payment and I'd rather try a gentle challenge then pee them off.
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pimlico35
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:41
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Thanks folks,

Yes I had to enter the reg no at the ticket machine - and have done so twice every week since May/June so there is definite proof that I have been making regular payments since then - without EVER getting a PCN.

This includes parking on Southampton Road and paying at the machine in Mansfield Road. The machines dont give receipts or tickets to display; which is why I assumed that paying at the machine would suffice.

Many thanks for responses, I will make my appeal on the grounds that payment was made - should I say anything about confusion of signs at this stage ... ??

smile.gif

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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:56
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QUOTE (pimlico35 @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:41) *
........- should I say anything about confusion of signs at this stage ... ??

smile.gif


Personally I wouldn't. Opinion only but I reckon keep it simple and sweet at this stage.
We can add items later and counter (if possible) whatever comes back.
But at the moment, we want them to do you a favour and actually check the records for a payment.

Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ???
I simply do not understand why I got a PCN.
I parked in my usual spot and made payment at the machine on ???? reference number ??? as I have done on numerous occasions.
Obviously without a payment ticket I am reliant on the machine correctly identifying the payment to my vehicle registration number and can only assume something went wrong with the system on this occasion.
Your records will show a payment against my registration number ???? made at approximately ??? time on ???date
Would you kindly review your records to find the payment.
I know I paid, I always do so hopefully, even if you find a minor error, perhaps I missed a digit on the registration number or the machine hiccupped, ask that you use your discretion to cancel this PCN.
Should you decide not to, please enclose a copy of the records for that time period and machine so I may check and consider my options on further action.
Hugs and kisses.

My take on it, once they come back, we will know what they are actually rejecting for and can use sign confusion, legitimate expectation etc but at the moment are firing in the dark for a response.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:58
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pimlico35
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:01
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tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

Wonderful! Thank you for this - I hope they get the laughs I did reading this!!!

Lets see.. !!!
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:01
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:41) *
Certainly agree to toss it into the mix should it progress to next stage and beyond.
Wouldn't at moment as I hope council will find a payment and I'd rather try a gentle challenge then pee them off.


I find these difficult to call. Personally I prefer to mention all points at all stages so that if a case goes to adjudication an adjudicator can see that there has been consistency throughout. They prefer this to extra things being tagged on at each stage. Experience has also shown me that the more awkward points get ignored by councils and this can work in a persons favour at adjudication where improper consideration can be used to allow an appeal that has no other compelling strengths.

I don't think a gentle enquiry should pee a council off. I'd simply end by saying that I notice that the contravention description used is not prescribed by London Councils and perhaps the council is unaware of this and is this grounds for cancelling the PCN?

Draw them gently into either ignoring or bullshitting. Either strengthens the OP's hand should he proceed.

This post has been edited by Bogsy: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:03
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:05
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QUOTE (Bogsy @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:01) *
.......I don't think a gentle enquiry should pee a council off. I'd simply end by saying that I notice that the contravention description used is not prescribed by London Councils and perhaps the council is unaware of this and is this grounds for cancelling the PCN?

Draw them gently into either ignoring or bullshitting. Either strengthens the OP's hand should he proceed.


In that respect, agreed.

It is a fishing expedition after all. smile.gif
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 10:17
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Another issue which should be explored is whether the pay by phone parking fee is different from the ticket parking fee. Not too concerned about minor add ons to use PBP but the core fee.

The TMO quotes the fee but this is a new situation where there could be differentials.

Mick
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