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Ealing PCN with old VRN using RingGo, PCN issued in Ealing against wrong reg in RingGo
markroworth
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 22:45
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Hi all,

I parked in Ealing in October with a friend and her four year old. I paid for the parking using the RingGo app while carrying the very excited four year old (we were going to a playground). I didn't notice that the RingGo app had defaulted to my old vehicle (scrapped in April 2015), rather than showing the one I'd used more recently, and hence paid for a non-existent car. I even extended the parking from the playground using RingGo. I didn't overstay.

I got back to the car to find a ticket on it and realised my mistake. I even had a friendly chat to the CEO from Ealing Council, who was marginally sympathetic, but indicated he couldn't revoke it and I'd need to appeal. Fair enough. He's doing his job. I appealed online explaining the issue, but they rather predictably rejected my appeal. Their argument revolved around the fact that they'd followed process, not whether, in the additional knowledge that I'd paid for the space, the fine is fair.

The car I paid for no longer exists, but I no longer have any documentation for it. If you look on the DVLA website, it states that no car with that registration is licenced, but that is all.

I've subsequently waited for and received an NTO as I'd like to fight this (I paid for the space the car was parked in). I'm unsure of my next move. There are various threads quoting guidance by the secretary of state, and also indicating that I should try and get the issue adjucated by POPLA (not sure who POPLA are yet).

Document scans are attached. Any help gratefully received. Thanks,

Mark
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post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 22:45
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stamfordman
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 22:56
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This is a common case on the forum. Some councils will cancel the first time but you are relying on policy and fairness not process as you indicate.

Forget POPLA - that's for private parking PCNs.

As you've sacrificed the discount you have nothing to lose by pressing the case at NTO and then adjudication should they reject again.

But first post your challenge and their rejection.

PS this shows how bloody minded some councils are on this:

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/west-l...unslow-11246854

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 23:05
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 09:02
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This case should be determined by "whose error?" the app or the user. This one might help:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1289618

What mischief has occurred if the Council have been paid for a parking period?

In the circumstances should the Council have used the contravention Code 11 "Parked without payment of the parking charge"

Why does it use a contravention relating to "display" in a parking area where PBP is available and where no display would occur?

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 09:09
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Colin_S
post Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 12:26
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 09:02) *
In the circumstances should the Council have used the contravention Code 11 "Parked without payment of the parking charge"

Why does it use a contravention relating to "display" in a parking area where PBP is available and where no display would occur?

Mick


Signs are confusing in this street - the sign on the NTO is different to other signs in the same street which include the pay by phone option. If this sign is the one here then the pay by phone option appears to be on the side of the machine.

I've successfully appealed a pay by phone mistake with Westminster where our driver paid to park in a street in Bristol. At least Ealing got the revenue in this case.
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markroworth
post Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 15:24
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I'm a bit worried by the fine escalating to £90. Is it possible for me to pay the fine and also appealing the NTO? If I pay the fine does the council just close the case? I don't really know the process. Either way I'd like to challenge it.

Following your link the council actually ignored the adjudicators decision. Can they legally do this? I thought the point of adjudication is that the outcome was accepted by both parties.

Any pointers to good wording for a response to them?
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 15:48
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OP---the NTO means that you have 28 days to appeal to the Council so stop fretting about any increased charge at this point. The Council will close the case if you pay up. Nothing more to pay at this stage.

A Council can ignore an adjudicator's recommendation if he or she asks that they use their discretion in finalising a case.

Wait until you get more advice from members on how to formulate your appeal--no rush at the mo.

Mick
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markroworth
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 10:04
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Hi all,

I replied to Ealing council on the 14 Dec 2017. Stupidly just sent it first class, rather than registered mail. In summary, I paid using RingGo, but my old car was selected by default and I paid for that by mistake. My argument is based around the following:
- Ealing haven't considered the facts of the case, just whether the CEO followed process.
- The RingGo app is misleading (with screenshots - hence 7 pages)
- I also requested a copy of their published policy documents on exercising discretion which they are required to have.
- I also requested data relating to quantities of PCNs relating to the RingGo app as a freedom of information request.









Went away for Christmas/New Year. Came back to this:




I am confused. They show 4 bullet points and say that one of them applies. Well, which one? Why list 4. I am utterly confused about what this means and where I am in the process. I have no idea whether they have actually received my represetation or not. I cannot get through to a human on the phone at all, just recorded messages. How do I get them to talk to me about the process.

Help! Please! Thanks,

Mark
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stamfordman
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 10:25
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As you made the appeal within 28 days you can wait for the debt recovery (order for recovery) and do a witness statement on the basis that you made representations but did not get a rejection. You can't do anything else with the charge certificate other than pay it.

Why didn't you send the appeal by email?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 10:27
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markroworth
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 10:27
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 10:25) *
As you made the appeal within 28 days you can wait for the debt recovery (order for recovery) and do a witness statement on the basis that you made representations to but did not get a rejection. You can't do anything else with the charge certificate other than pay it.

Why didn't you send the appeal by email?


Thanks for replying. No real reason to be honest. I'm concerned that they haven't registered my appeal. I've had no acknowledgement of it. If they contend that they never received it, do I now have a problem?
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Incandescent
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 11:39
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As Stamfordman says, all you now have to do is wait for the Order for Recovery, then submit a Witness Statement that you made reps but did not receive a rejection of those reps. The matter will then be reset to the Notice to Owner stage at which point you can appeal or pay. The forms for making the statement will be included with the OfR, but you can also download them from the TEC website.
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markroworth
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 11:50
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 11:39) *
As Stamfordman says, all you now have to do is wait for the Order for Recovery, then submit a Witness Statement that you made reps but did not receive a rejection of those reps. The matter will then be reset to the Notice to Owner stage at which point you can appeal or pay. The forms for making the statement will be included with the OfR, but you can also download them from the TEC website.


Super. Thanks. It's the process I was unclear about.
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markroworth
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 10:35
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Just to keep the trail up to date, images below.

I'll wait for the Order for Recovery, I guess. Two questions:
It indicates that I have no further right to appeal. Does this They don't appear to have addressed any of the points in my challenge. I'm not sure what the point of the challenge was?
What is the statutory declaration? Is it just another challenge where I make the same points again?






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stamfordman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 10:48
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As we said you wait for the OfR and you file a declaration that you appealed but got no reply. The OfR will tell you how to do this. This is nothing to do with appealing the PCN, just to get it reset to the appeal stage.
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HYG
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:58
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@stamfordman When it is reset to the appeal stage - will the OP be liable for £60 or £90?
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HYG
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 13:32
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If the OP had proof of representations as it had been sent recorded delivery, would these steps have followed:

Issue a Charge Certificate

Registration of Debt and Order for Recovery (with a Witness Statement form)

The OP would then lodge a witness statement at the Traffic Enforcement Centre.

The OP could claim in his\her witness statement - that representations to the enforcement authority were made but did not receive a Notice of Rejection from that authority.

As none of the following apply to the OP - "If the ground is that the Notice to Owner was not received, the Order for Recovery, Charge Certificate and Notice to Owner are cancelled. The enforcement authority may then issue a new Notice to Owner;"

For any of the other grounds, the enforcement authority must refer the witness statement to the adjudicator who will decide what will happen next.

Does anyone know what normally happens next? with or without proof that representations to the enforcement authority were made?





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stamfordman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 13:39
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QUOTE (HYG @ Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:58) *
@stamfordman When it is reset to the appeal stage - will the OP be liable for £60 or £90?



£60. Although it's possible the council could have reoffered the discount of £30 in the missing or non-existent rejection, as the OP missed the challenge stage.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 13:57
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HYG
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 13:59
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@stamfordman

"£60. Although it's possible the council could have re-offered the discount of £30 in the missing or non-existent rejection, but unlikely as the OP missed the challenge stage."

If the OP had proof by way of Recorded Delivery do you think it likely that £30 would have been offered?

If the case went to the Adjudicator could the OP have claimed "abuse of process" as s(he) had proof of postage?

If the above is correct - it seems the OP missed a great opportunity to get this thing thrown out? or am I missing a something?

Thanks.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 14:13
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Sorry I changed it - it may be likely they offered the discount at the NTO rejection because the OP missed the challenge. But they don't have to as the NTO is for the full £60.

Anyway this is not the matter to hand yet.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 14:13
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 14:16
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There is no need for proof of posting the presumption of service works both ways. When the order for recovery arrives tick the box, I made representations but did not receive a response.
get it witnessed when you sign as instructed and send to TEC.

It is tick box the CC and order for recovery will be revoked and the authority will be instructed to refer to the adjudicator for direction. This used to be to set a date for an appeal, but due to a standing direction to try to resolve
the council will likely offer you a chance to pay
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HYG
post Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 14:48
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@PASTMYBEST

Please correct me if I am wrong – the OP had a PCN for £30 and filed a response, the Council did not process it and sent an NTO for £60 and is now pursuing this amount. The OP can declare that a response was filed and it may go to the adjudicator for guidance – my point is, surely the OP should be given another opportunity to pay £30 – as (s)he would have done if the original representation had failed?

I appreciate the offer of a discount of £30 after a rejected appeal is discretionary but it does seem that due to the Council’s failure to process the response the OP may now be faced having to pay £60.
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