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Llanthony Bridge charge certificate, 2nd Penalty notice received 2 months after
Water
post Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 11:00
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Hi, can someone please help us?!
We received the attached letter today, which is the first and only letter received.
It has a penalty charge + 50% increase so is now £90 !
We don’t live locally so cannot return to check signage etc. This threw me as it’s from Gloucestershire County Council, via APCOA with an Uxbridge address - all this is why I’m here. All these things don’t seem to add up. Surely there’s something we can do to appeal against this?

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post Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 11:00
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Neil B
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 16:59
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Ok.

When you fill in the PE3 'applicant' is Gloucestershire County Council


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Water
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 20:34
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Okey doke, will be back to check I’ve filled it in correctly before returning to them.
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Water
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 10:26
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Received and filled in.
I’ve yet to fill in the PCN & car reg, my name & address. Also I need to sign & date and swear.
Other than that it’s ok to post?






Sorry, somehow managed to post several of the same pages!
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Neil B
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 11:45
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QUOTE (Water @ Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 10:26) *
Also I need to sign & date and swear.
Other than that it’s ok to post?

I know I said keep the details limited but I think you should just add to your sentence --

'I do not know why'
add
'I did not receive the penalty charge notice'.

I know it seems daft and I don't think they read it anyway but it's clearer what you 'don't know'.

On swearing --- have you arranged for this?
Don't sign until told by the Court Officer or solicitor.

Better to scan and e-mail in >> tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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spaceman
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 11:47
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 3 Nov 2017 - 19:44) *
I see that the telephone payment option requires payment for the call at local rate, so could be construed as an illegal demand for payment over that defined in law, which is the PCN penalty.

Not the same, since the cost of the call does not accrue to the enforcement authority.
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Water
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 12:19
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Ok, I’ll add that bit onto it.
No, I’ve not arranged to swear it yet ?
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Neil B
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 12:23
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QUOTE (Water @ Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 12:19) *
Ok, I’ll add that bit onto it.
No, I’ve not arranged to swear it yet ?

Well what are you understanding it means? It's written on the form!

and post #32


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Water
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 15:30
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Sorry, crossed wires I think.
The ? was meant to ask why you had asked if I’d arranged to swear it yet. My apologies, should have been clearer (and I can’t work out how to do the quote thing!).
Thanks again.
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Water
post Mon, 1 Jan 2018 - 20:41
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Hi,
To keep you updated - I have sworn the PE3 at a local solicitors office and emailed a copy to tec@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk a few moments ago.

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Water
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 13:01
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Hi all,
So this arrived today.
Do I need to do anything? It says I should contact the LA/Charging Authority, but then says they will contact me??
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Incandescent
post Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 18:02
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The ball is very much in their court, but it might be prudent to contact them after about 10 days if they have sent you nothing.
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Water
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 21:04
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Ok, I’ll give it a little while.
We’re away next week so if there’s nothing waiting for us when we return I’ll give them a ring.
Thanks.
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Water
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 11:21
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The PCN arrived this morning!
Here it is, 3 pages.



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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 10:55
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Need some input from Neil on this one but I would respond as follows:-

PCN Number ??????

I wish to contest this Penalty Charge and raise issues with the official procedures in reaching this stage.

1. The present Traffic Order is invalid

The Traffic Order relating to LLanthony Bridge is not valid and therefore any enforcement is itself invalid.

http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/media/19702/order.pdf

The Order indicates that it was "made" on 29th December 2017 but comes into operation on 15th January 2017 therefore it is legally unsound.

2. Previous Order cannot designate Llanthony Bridge as a Bus Lane

The Order noted above revoked the Gloucestershire County Council (Llanthony Road Gloucester) (Prohibition of Driving) (Bus Lane) Order 2012 which allowed residents and permit holders to cross the bridge.

In this respect I would argue that this is not a bus lane due to a large number of exceptions and would offer the Lendal Bridge TPT case (YR 05035C) to substantiate this argument.

3. Procedural Issues

(a) Payment to APCOA

The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005

"2(4) In determining, for the purposes of these Regulations, whether and when a penalty charge has been paid, it shall be taken to have been paid when the whole of the amount of the penalty charge applicable in the circumstances of the case is received by the approved local authority concerned."

Therefore it is impossible to keep to the statutory dates if an intermediary, which is not the enforcement authority, asks for payment to be made to itself.

(b) APCOA issue of Charge Certificate

An intermediary cannot issue a charge certificate because of two issues--they cannot exercise the discretion of the enforcement authority in that the legislation notes "the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent" The "may" denotes discretion. Second, they cannot comply with the public law duty placed on the Council as stated in the legislation:-

"the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent".

© APCOA's letter of 10 November is in Abuse of Process

APCOA has sought to dun payment outside the regulatory process and asked for payment to be made to APOCA not the body noted on the Charge Certificate. This is highly irregular as is the description of the Court process.


4. Signage


The bus lane signs 953 (as per the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 2008) are too small and not to the advised size of 750mm as point 15.22 of the signage directives.

Signs 953 should have been preceded by a broken white line which is evident on the eastern side of the bridge. This is not present at the north western side of the bridge.

The advance warning signs for this bridge are inadequate with the result that drivers have difficulty avoiding the bridge.

Road markings should have indicated that most traffic should turn away from the approach road to avoid going over the bridge..

It should be noted that traffic on this road probably has an average speed of 25 mph and any prohibition signage should be readable from a distance of 60 metres as table 1-1 of the Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 2008.

I would aver that this signage does not conform to these specifications.

In the light of the above grounds I respectfully ask that the penalty charge be cancelled.

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:03
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Neil B
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:00
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 10:55) *
Need some input from Neil on this one but I would respond as follows:-

I can only think of the flawed OfR to add at the mo and will knock up a couple of sentences.

When do we need it by?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:04
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Before the 28th.

Mick
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Neil B
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:09
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 11:04) *
Before the 28th.

Mick

Okey doke.

By Monday.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 12:15
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WATER.
I need your help again please.

You called TEC as suggested.
QUOTE (Water @ Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 14:26) *
I’ve just put the phone down after speaking to Kelly.
She said they shouldn’t have pre-filled in the form and I should do that.

Ok, well done and you resolved it sufficiently to proceed.
BUT
I specifically needed to find out what date TEC had on file as contravention date?

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 22:39) *
there's a problem with the PE3 form APCOA have given you:

TEC only work with the 'date of contravention' but APCOA have this as 15th September as opposed
to the correct 1st September they have on the front.

(15th is PCN date)

It might be ok and TEC use the PCN number to process it BUT you should not risk the chance
that any error will spoil this normally automatic process.
(Note the PE3 specifically says the details in top right hand fields must match those on the OfR)

So, we could get and use a blank form ourselves ---- but we still can't be sure what date TEC have on file.

I now note that 15th September on the OfR is not even the PCN date !
It's a date that has nothing to do with your PCN.

I really need you to call TEC again and ask - just this >

'When GCC registered the debt, what did they state as date of contravention?'

Will have to be Monday.

Ta.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Water
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 21:30
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Wow! I’m getting lost in all this. I will be reading over again a few times until I’m not lost!
I get that you need me to phone TEC and ask only that. I will do exactly that on Monday morning and post the answer.
Thanks
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Neil B
post Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 21:38
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QUOTE (Water @ Sat, 20 Jan 2018 - 21:30) *
Wow! I’m getting lost in all this. I will be reading over again a few times until I’m not lost!
I get that you need me to phone TEC and ask only that. I will do exactly that on Monday morning and post the answer.
Thanks

Thanks.

Mick's post is a draft for representations.

I'll add to it re the OfR -- prob Tuesday now.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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