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Llanthony Bridge charge certificate, 2nd Penalty notice received 2 months after
Water
post Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 11:00
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Hi, can someone please help us?!
We received the attached letter today, which is the first and only letter received.
It has a penalty charge + 50% increase so is now £90 !
We don’t live locally so cannot return to check signage etc. This threw me as it’s from Gloucestershire County Council, via APCOA with an Uxbridge address - all this is why I’m here. All these things don’t seem to add up. Surely there’s something we can do to appeal against this?

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post Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 11:00
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Water
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:36
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Ok, thank you. Sorry I must sound really stupid - not dealt with anything like this before. I’m learning! 🙂
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 17:08
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QUOTE (Water @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:36) *
Ok, thank you. Sorry I must sound really stupid - not dealt with anything like this before. I’m learning! 🙂


No it is a simple process but is being complicated by a venal authority using a company renowned for sharp practice, But we understand it Neil in particular is very clued up so don't worry.
We will get it re set providing you keep in touch. And the beauty is, by their actions your chances of winning any appeal are greatly increased
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Neil B
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 17:21
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QUOTE (Water @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:36) *
Ok, thank you. Sorry I must sound really stupid - not dealt with anything like this before. I’m learning! 🙂

Not at all.
You are doing nothing wrong.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Water
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 20:45
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Hi, just letting you know I’ve not heard/received anything since posting here last. Time is getting on.
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Neil B
post Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 21:20
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QUOTE (Water @ Mon, 20 Nov 2017 - 20:45) *
Hi, just letting you know I’ve not heard/received anything since posting here last. Time is getting on.

Phone TEC 0300 123 1059 (be patient for pick up).

Ask if the debt has been registered yet and, if so, your deadline to act.

Tell us result.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Water
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 14:00
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I spoke to a lady on the phone this morning.
The conversation went like this after I’d given her the PCN No.
Me: I’d like to know if the debt has been registered yet and if it has the deadline please?
Lady: Let me have a look, what stage are you up to? Do you have an order...
Me: I’ve received some things but no Order of Recovery yet.
Lady: The debt hasn’t been registered yet, it’s not here with us so they can’t get a warrant yet. Ring back in a week.
Me: Ok thank you.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 15:24
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QUOTE (Water @ Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 14:00) *
I spoke to a lady on the phone this morning.
The conversation went like this after I’d given her the PCN No.
Me: I’d like to know if the debt has been registered yet and if it has the deadline please?
Lady: Let me have a look, what stage are you up to? Do you have an order...
Me: I’ve received some things but no Order of Recovery yet.
Lady: The debt hasn’t been registered yet, it’s not here with us so they can’t get a warrant yet. Ring back in a week.
Me: Ok thank you.


good advice, follow it unless one turns up in the post
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Water
post Thu, 23 Nov 2017 - 21:18
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good advice, follow it unless one turns up in the post
[/quote]

Ok will do. Thanks 🙂
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Water
post Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:12
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Good morning.
This arrived in the post this morning.




What do I do now?
Would I be right that, on the second page I fill in my name & address in section 2 and tick the ‘Did not receive notice to owner’ box.
My reason are ??
Then sign and date the form at one of the places mentioned?

How long do I have to do this? The first page states YOU MUST WITHIN 21 DAYS of the date shown on the postmark...
There is no postmark?!

If that’s correct, then what? I wait again for something else to arrive?
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:58
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One of the other members will advise you on completing this form.

The issues on the charge certificate remain relevant to your appeal once the Order for recovery has been dealt with.

In essence the point I made about it being issued by APCOA relates to discretion. If we look at the Bus Lanes legislation of 2005 it states:-

Charge certificates

32.—(1) Where—

(a)a penalty charge notice is served on any person; and

(b)the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period,

the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.

The word "may" is critical it is not a "shall", "must", or "will" which denote a mandatory action--it is discretionary.

If we go back to the Fosbeary case which considered the relationship between APCOA and the Council it made the following statement:-

16. It is clear, therefore, that the regulations impose duties on the enforcement authority which require the making of discretionary decisions in the light of information and representations that the authority has received. Because the discretion rests only with the enforcement authority, this is not a function which the enforcement authority can delegate to any external body. There are special provisions in the Local Government Act 2000 which enable local authorities to form joint working groups or committees for similar functions, which enable individual local authorities to enter into “agency” agreements with each other in connection with the enforcement of parking contraventions, but those special statutory rules are not applicable to contracts with outside contractors. They do not apply to the contract between the Council and the company.

Later in that Decision the relationship boundaries were detailed as:-

"the compliance with the Council’s public law duties, which include the duty of fairness and the duties under the Equality Act 2010. Those public law duties cannot be delegated to any outside contractor which is not itself a public authority".

Case here:-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?act=at...st&id=30363

For the above reasons I would contend that the Charge Certificate is a nullity and cannot be enforced.

Mick
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Neil B
post Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 11:50
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Arrrgh, I'm busy

but hold fire - something is odd.

Later, when I can.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:26
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Ok, just briefly, to move you on.
QUOTE (Water @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:12) *
What do I do now?
Would I be right that, on the second page I fill in my name & address in section 2 and tick the ‘Did not receive notice to owner’ box.
My reason are ??
Then sign and date the form at one of the places mentioned?

YES.
The details box is superfluous: In your circumstances, you need only repeat 'I did not receive the PCN' and, if you insist, add
'I do not know why'
The reset process, 'in time' is automatic so it really doesn't matter.
The misnomer 'signing' is really a matter of 'swearing' the form, under oath. 2 minutes!
Free at your local County Court (porobably need appointment but usually done at the counter)
or solicitor circa £7- £10
Send to TEC



QUOTE (Water @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:12) *
If that’s correct, then what? I wait again for something else to arrive?

Revoking Order from TEC, then a new PCN from Council - bring here!

QUOTE (Water @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:12) *
How long do I have to do this? The first page states YOU MUST WITHIN 21 DAYS of the date shown on the postmark...
There is no postmark?!

Superb and that's just one of the ways the OfR is unlawful - there are a few.

APCOA again? Who exactly registered this debt at Court Mick?

Anyone noticed they have two DIFFERENT contravention dates, front and back?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 16:23
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:26) *
Ok, just briefly, to move you on.
QUOTE (Water @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:12) *
What do I do now?
Would I be right that, on the second page I fill in my name & address in section 2 and tick the ‘Did not receive notice to owner’ box.
My reason are ??
Then sign and date the form at one of the places mentioned?

YES.
The details box is superfluous: In your circumstances, you need only repeat 'I did not receive the PCN' and, if you insist, add
'I do not know why'
The reset process, 'in time' is automatic so it really doesn't matter.
The misnomer 'signing' is really a matter of 'swearing' the form, under oath. 2 minutes!
Free at your local County Court (porobably need appointment but usually done at the counter)
or solicitor circa £7- £10
Send to TEC



QUOTE (Water @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:12) *
If that’s correct, then what? I wait again for something else to arrive?

Revoking Order from TEC, then a new PCN from Council - bring here!

QUOTE (Water @ Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 10:12) *
How long do I have to do this? The first page states YOU MUST WITHIN 21 DAYS of the date shown on the postmark...
There is no postmark?!

Superb and that's just one of the ways the OfR is unlawful - there are a few.

APCOA again? Who exactly registered this debt at Court Mick?

Anyone noticed they have two DIFFERENT contravention dates, front and back?


No, but OP do not lose any of these documents, Where you have to return, make sure you have copies.
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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 08:45
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Hang on, WAIT

Something more drastically wrong that could cause a mishap!

Water
Please acknowledge and I'll explain - and what to do about it.

Have you filed (sent) the Statutory Declaration yet? DON'T yet.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 08:47


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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Water
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 16:27
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I’ve not done anything yet, only just read all your replies...?
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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 18:18
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Ok.
I'll post tonight.

Nothing to worry about. But still important.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Tue, 5 Dec 2017 - 22:39
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Ok, here we go.

Your next action is as advised, submit a Statutory Declaration to the effect 'No PCN received'.

EXCEPT there's a problem with the PE3 form APCOA have given you:

TEC only work with the 'date of contravention' but APCOA have this as 15th September as opposed
to the correct 1st September they have on the front.

(15th is PCN date)

It might be ok and TEC use the PCN number to process it BUT you should not risk the chance
that any error will spoil this normally automatic process.
(Note the PE3 specifically says the details in top right hand fields must match those on the OfR)

So, we could get and use a blank form ourselves ---- but we still can't be sure what date TEC have on file.

It is better to ring TEC 0300 123 1059 and ask them what they want you to do.
Specifically, tell them,
'where the Council have pre-filled details on the PE3, the date of contravention does not
match the Order for Recovery'


You have plenty of time.

--

and, of course, this very likely means you will pay nothing in the end.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Water
post Wed, 6 Dec 2017 - 23:20
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To confirm then, tomorrow morning I’ll ring TEC and do just that, quoting exact same. Will post conversation here as before!
Thank you 😊
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Neil B
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 00:00
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Cool.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Water
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 14:26
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I’ve just put the phone down after speaking to Kelly.
She said they shouldn’t have pre-filled in the form and I should do that. Would I like another form emailed to me? I asked for one to be posted as I’m low on ink (truth!). It’s being sent by first class post today.
It was registered with them on 29th Nov, I have 36 days to respond which makes it 4th January.
I said thank you, I’ll deal with it when it arrives.
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