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PCN: Failing to comply with a no entry restriction N22
max007
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 21:26
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Received a PCN for the above in Stirling Road N22.

The no entry restriction doesn't seem to serve any purpose apart from earning Haringey Co a few extra pounds in the coffers - Stirling Road is a two way street, apart from this junction with Dunbar Road.

Once you travel down Dunbar Road, you are essentially trapped - there is a no entry restriction blocking access to Perth Road & no access via Stirling Road.

There are is no signage regarding the use of traffic enforcement cameras - does this make any difference?

In addition, there was a major fire in the locality at the time of the contravention which resulted in a number of major roads being blocked and the police redirecting traffic to this very road!
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post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 21:26
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max007
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 21:26
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Received a PCN for the above in Stirling Road N22.

The no entry restriction doesn't seem to serve any purpose apart from earning Haringey Co a few extra pounds in the coffers - Stirling Road is a two way street, apart from this junction with Dunbar Road.

Once you travel down Dunbar Road, you are essentially trapped - there is a no entry restriction blocking access to Perth Road & no access via Stirling Road.

There are is no signage regarding the use of traffic enforcement cameras - does this make any difference?

In addition, there was a major fire in the locality at the time of the contravention which resulted in a number of major roads being blocked and the police redirecting traffic to this very road!
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Incandescent
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 21:46
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If t he police directed you down there, then this is an exemption as you obeyed the instructions of a police officer in uniform. HOwever, you'll need to get some info to support an appeal based on this.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 21:52
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QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:26) *
Received a PCN for the above in Stirling Road N22.

The no entry restriction doesn't seem to serve any purpose apart from earning Haringey Co a few extra pounds in the coffers - Stirling Road is a two way street, apart from this junction with Dunbar Road.

Once you travel down Dunbar Road, you are essentially trapped - there is a no entry restriction blocking access to Perth Road & no access via Stirling Road.

There are is no signage regarding the use of traffic enforcement cameras - does this make any difference?

In addition,
QUOTE
there was a major fire in the locality at the time of the contravention which resulted in a number of major roads being blocked and the police redirecting traffic to this very road!



This bit might be relevant if it can be confirmed

Post ALL the PCN and get and post the video

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 21:53
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max007
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:43
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:52) *
QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:26) *
Received a PCN for the above in Stirling Road N22.

The no entry restriction doesn't seem to serve any purpose apart from earning Haringey Co a few extra pounds in the coffers - Stirling Road is a two way street, apart from this junction with Dunbar Road.

Once you travel down Dunbar Road, you are essentially trapped - there is a no entry restriction blocking access to Perth Road & no access via Stirling Road.

There are is no signage regarding the use of traffic enforcement cameras - does this make any difference?

In addition,
QUOTE
there was a major fire in the locality at the time of the contravention which resulted in a number of major roads being blocked and the police redirecting traffic to this very road!



This bit might be relevant if it can be confirmed

Post ALL the PCN and get and post the video


Have checked the PCN & video - there does not appear to be any ambiguity regarding the contravention itself.
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max007
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:44
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:46) *
If t he police directed you down there, then this is an exemption as you obeyed the instructions of a police officer in uniform. HOwever, you'll need to get some info to support an appeal based on this.


That's encouraging - any idea as to what info would be acceptable?
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peterguk
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:54
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QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:44) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:46) *
If t he police directed you down there, then this is an exemption as you obeyed the instructions of a police officer in uniform. HOwever, you'll need to get some info to support an appeal based on this.


That's encouraging - any idea as to what info would be acceptable?



Get onto your local police station and find the dept. that would have dealt with managing the traffic.

In addition, the video evidence should clearly show a stream of cars being directed through the No Entry signs by the police.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:55


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:09
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QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:43) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:52) *
QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:26) *
Received a PCN for the above in Stirling Road N22.

The no entry restriction doesn't seem to serve any purpose apart from earning Haringey Co a few extra pounds in the coffers - Stirling Road is a two way street, apart from this junction with Dunbar Road.

Once you travel down Dunbar Road, you are essentially trapped - there is a no entry restriction blocking access to Perth Road & no access via Stirling Road.

There are is no signage regarding the use of traffic enforcement cameras - does this make any difference?

In addition,
QUOTE
there was a major fire in the locality at the time of the contravention which resulted in a number of major roads being blocked and the police redirecting traffic to this very road!



This bit might be relevant if it can be confirmed

Post ALL the PCN and get and post the video


Have checked the PCN & video - there does not appear to be any ambiguity regarding the contravention itself.


That's good, so there are no errors with the PCN and the video confirms your contention that the police directed you down that street so no problem
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Neil B
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:33
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 3 Oct 2017 - 00:09) *
That's good, so there are no errors with the PCN and the video confirms your contention that the police directed you down that street so no problem

You've been to same school as me? biggrin.gif


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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peterguk
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:54
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OP. You seem to have two identical threads running. rolleyes.gif

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=116101

A mod. will merge.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:54


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max007
post Tue, 3 Oct 2017 - 22:30
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:54) *
QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:44) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:46) *
If t he police directed you down there, then this is an exemption as you obeyed the instructions of a police officer in uniform. HOwever, you'll need to get some info to support an appeal based on this.


That's encouraging - any idea as to what info would be acceptable?



Get onto your local police station and find the dept. that would have dealt with managing the traffic.

In addition, the video evidence should clearly show a stream of cars being directed through the No Entry signs by the police.


Have contacted the local police to get some more info. The video evidence will not show a stream of cars being directed through the No Entry signs by the police - they were manning the road closure near by & simply issued verbal guidance - will this be a problem?

Also mentioned about the absence of any signage about traffic enforcement cameras being in operation - is this a valid point?
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max007
post Wed, 4 Oct 2017 - 20:58
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QUOTE (max007 @ Tue, 3 Oct 2017 - 23:30) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:54) *
QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 23:44) *
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 22:46) *
If t he police directed you down there, then this is an exemption as you obeyed the instructions of a police officer in uniform. HOwever, you'll need to get some info to support an appeal based on this.


That's encouraging - any idea as to what info would be acceptable?



Get onto your local police station and find the dept. that would have dealt with managing the traffic.

In addition, the video evidence should clearly show a stream of cars being directed through the No Entry signs by the police.


Have contacted the local police to get some more info. The video evidence will not show a stream of cars being directed through the No Entry signs by the police - they were manning the road closure near by & simply issued verbal guidance - will this be a problem?

Also mentioned about the absence of any signage about traffic enforcement cameras being in operation - is this a valid point?


Just wanted to know about the signage for traffic enforcement cameras - should they be present?
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max007
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 00:07
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Received a formal notice of rejection. The letter fails to address the points I raised about the traffic being redirected and just reiterates that it is an offence to drive past the no entry sign & that's it.

The formal appeal to the adjudicator gives the grounds on which an appeal can be allowed & there are no grounds to mention again the mitigating circumstances. Is that it then - no point in appealing?
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Neil B
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 01:07
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QUOTE (max007 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 00:07) *
Is that it then - no point in appealing?

Dunno.
You were asked to post the PCN and vid ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 09:04
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Here? ------

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Stirlin...#33;4d-0.100701

These are signs to Diagram 616 which are currently subject to a glitch in the 2003 legislation.

Yes the OP has a case on the redirection of traffic and duff legislation but we need to see what the PCN says. Also the initial challenge and rejection. Otherwise I would suggest he pays at the discount.

Mick
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max007
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 13:36
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 09:04) *
Here? ------

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Stirlin...#33;4d-0.100701

These are signs to Diagram 616 which are currently subject to a glitch in the 2003 legislation.

Yes the OP has a case on the redirection of traffic and duff legislation but we need to see what the PCN says. Also the initial challenge and rejection. Otherwise I would suggest he pays at the discount.

Mick


I am including the details, as per your request. There does not appear to be an option to continue fighting this on mitigating circumstances as per the appeals documentation I have received. Advice would be appreciated.




This was my objection:

I wish to make a representation.

There are mitigating circumstances. There was a major fire overnight on the 19th of September at the Safehouse Storage warehouse on White Hart Lane – the inferno was reported worldwide and had a major impact in the locality, resulting in widespread traffic disruption. A number of roads were closed, including White Hart Lane. On the evening in question, there was a road block on White Hart Lane with the junction with Wolves Lane and the police manning the closure were redirecting traffic and issuing verbal instructions to drivers. In this case, needing to turn left onto White Hart Lane from Wolves Lane, I was forced to make an unexpected turn to the right and was advised to take the next left turn, which was Dunbar Road, in order to get onto Perth Road and circumvent the road closures whilst reaching my destination. I have not recently travelled this route – the last time that I did there were no restrictions in place for entry leading on to Stirling Road or indeed Perth Road (the former has always been a quiet road). I was not aware of an alternative route. I was distressed and conscious that I needed to deliver my elderly father's cardiac medication to him by a certain time. I assumed that given the instructions issued by the police and the significant mitigating circumstances that any such contravention would be dealt with sympathetically and compassionately. I have driven for twenty years and have never received a penalty or speeding ticket.

The particular, compelling circumstances of this case warrant a flexible response and there is an obligation to assess this as advised in the TMA 2004 10.2, 10.3, 10.4

In relation to this particular contravention, it is noteworthy that Haringey Council has eschewed the London Councils’ Code of Practice for Operation of CCTV Enforcement Cameras ", in particular paragraph 8.78:

The Secretary of State recommends that authorities put up signs to tell drivers that they are using cameras to detect contraventions. Signs must comply with TSRGD or have special authorisation from DfT The Secretary of State recommends that approved devices are used only where enforcement is difficult or sensitive and CEO enforcement is not practical.

There are no visible signs informing drivers that cameras are being used and the location is not in any way 'difficult or impractical' for enforcement by a patrolling CEO. It is quite perplexing why the decision was taken to make a no entry junction here and furthermore, why it is being enforced by CCTV. I am aware of high traffic locations in Haringey where there have been fatalities due to moving traffic contraventions and there is no visible enforcement either by CEOs or CCTV – it is baffling and disappointing.
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John U.K.
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 13:42
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QUOTE
the police manning the closure were redirecting traffic and issuing verbal instructions to drivers. In this case, needing to turn left onto White Hart Lane from Wolves Lane, I was forced to make an unexpected turn to the right and was advised to take the next left turn, which was Dunbar Road, in order to get onto Perth Road and circumvent the road closures whilst reaching my destination.


If you were advised by the police, obeying the directions of a police officer in uniform is normally a statutory exemption, not mitigating circumstances.

If you were advised by Satnav, no joy.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 14:38
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there is an ambiguity between the PCN and the NOR one says failing to comply with sign the other failing to comply with restriction. To fail to comply with a restriction, one must have been created by a TMO
there is a good chance that it was not. Before the glitch MMV talks about it was an offence not to comply with the sign so the council did not need a TMO.

if you intend to fight this should be part of your appeal we can explain and expand for you if needed
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max007
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 15:30
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 14:38) *
there is an ambiguity between the PCN and the NOR one says failing to comply with sign the other failing to comply with restriction. To fail to comply with a restriction, one must have been created by a TMO
there is a good chance that it was not. Before the glitch MMV talks about it was an offence not to comply with the sign so the council did not need a TMO.

if you intend to fight this should be part of your appeal we can explain and expand for you if needed


Many thanks. Yes, I would definitely need further info/advice about this.

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max007
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 22:58
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QUOTE (max007 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 15:30) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 14:38) *
there is an ambiguity between the PCN and the NOR one says failing to comply with sign the other failing to comply with restriction. To fail to comply with a restriction, one must have been created by a TMO
there is a good chance that it was not. Before the glitch MMV talks about it was an offence not to comply with the sign so the council did not need a TMO.

if you intend to fight this should be part of your appeal we can explain and expand for you if needed


Many thanks. Yes, I would definitely need further info/advice about this.


Any advice would be appreciated smile.gif
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