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Bus Lane / Gate PCN Romney Avenue Bristol, Inadequate signage/markings?
Morrowitz
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 09:59
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Hi all

Hoping someone will be able to help with this PCN case

My wife went through a bus gate on 12/7/2017 at midday at this location in Bristol
https://goo.gl/maps/DgZjj4LDZLK2
Notice was posted on 18/7/2017
Date of Service is taken as 20/7/2017
Deadline for reduced charge is 3/8/2017
Deadline for Reps is 17/8/2017

It’s a new lane so the street view only has a 20mph sign and the road ends at a dead end. This is how it looks on 19/7/2017
http://i65.tinypic.com/jqkg9c.jpg
There is a warning sign further back the road at this location
https://goo.gl/maps/pHwJDLNscSQ2
http://i67.tinypic.com/1670ak2.jpg

This is the PCN




http://i67.tinypic.com/24lv66r.jpg
http://i64.tinypic.com/2cpxojd.jpg
http://i68.tinypic.com/2ynld7a.jpg

Here’s what happened
On the morning of 12/7/2017 my wife took our pre-schooler and young baby to a forest school on Romney Avenue, Bristol.
https://goo.gl/maps/HeEfApueioM2
It was the first time she had ever been along this road and was approaching from the south. The warning sign is situated just prior to the school on the right. My wife does not recall seeing this sign, probably as she had seen the school and was scanning for parking.
Parking was limited so she drove on and parked here https://goo.gl/maps/DgZjj4LDZLK2
She parked at around 10 am, approximately 20 yds from the bus gate.

At 12:00 she returned to the car, loaded the children into and set off for home. She knew she had to take a left after the school to bring her back towards home but had already driven past the turning while looking for a parking space and not realised it. She set off down the road and almost immediately crossed the red painted section of road. She registered the sign but the lack of red painted road ahead and the lack of Bus Lane markings fooled her in to thinking the lane was either not in force yet (it’s a new development) or further ahead.

There was absolutely nothing for her to gain in using this bus lane and it turned a 1 mile journey in to 4 mile journey.

So my question is probably the same as many others: Are there grounds for a challenge?

  1. The initial warning is ~ 220ft from the bus gate (not sure if this has any bearing)
  2. According to the TSRGD table 36 item 13 “The road marking “BUS GATE” means a road or part of a road indicated by the sign shown in Table 6 item 10, 11, 12 or 18 when varied to include at least an exception for buses.” These are all red circle signs and not the blue sign used.
  3. Referencing the blue signage the Traffic Signs Manual - 15.29 states “Where either a one-way or two-way road is reserved for buses and cycles, the entry points should be indicated by signs to diagram 953. The other end of a one-way road must have “no entry” signs to diagram 616 in accordance with paras 4.39 to 4.41. Where the order permits taxis to use the road or excludes cycles, the sign to diagram 953 shall be varied accordingly. As with contra-flow bus lanes, this sign must be used in combination with the “Only” plate to diagram 953.2. Where the road is for the exclusive use of buses, the sign to diagram 953 is varied to show only the bus symbol.” The “Only” sign is missing from both signs and is required. I understand there may be an exception if the council has secured DfT authorisation to allow them to use a variant sign.
  4. Also referencing the blue signage (953) figure 15-8 of the traffic signs manual states “Direction 20(1) does not permit diagram 953 to be used without the “Only” plate to diagram 953.2”. I’m not sure what Direction 20 is though.
  5. The PCN is for Code: 34J Being in a bus lane but she was never in a bus lane and there were no markings to suggest there was a bus lane. This was an argument suggested in this thread (among others) http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=97756



Sorry for the long initial post but I thought I’d get as much down as possible.

Is anyone able to suggest the best way to take this forward?

Many thanks in hope

This post has been edited by Morrowitz: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 09:36
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post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 09:59
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Incandescent
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 12:50
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Sorry to be thick, but are you saying the advance warning signs and blue 'Buses Only' signs are there now, as there are none on the June 2015 GSV view ?
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Morrowitz
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 14:14
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 13:50) *
Sorry to be thick, but are you saying the advance warning signs and blue 'Buses Only' signs are there now, as there are none on the June 2015 GSV view ?

Hi
Yes they are there now.
Advance warning http://i67.tinypic.com/1670ak2.jpg
Buses only (without the "Only") http://i65.tinypic.com/jqkg9c.jpg
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Neil B
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 14:56
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QUOTE (Morrowitz @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 10:59) *
Notice was posted on 18/7/2017
Date of Service is taken as 20/7/2017
Deadline for reduced charge is 3/8/2017
Deadline for Reps is 17/8/2017

Can't trawl through a long list of links.

Does it actually say this on the PCN?
Cos both wrong.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 15:08
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 15:56) *
QUOTE (Morrowitz @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 10:59) *
Notice was posted on 18/7/2017
Date of Service is taken as 20/7/2017
Deadline for reduced charge is 3/8/2017
Deadline for Reps is 17/8/2017

Can't trawl through a long list of links.

Does it actually say this on the PCN?
Cos both wrong.



Nope the Op has just calculated wrong just quotes 28 days beginning with
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Morrowitz
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 15:17
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 15:56) *
QUOTE (Morrowitz @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 10:59) *
Notice was posted on 18/7/2017
Date of Service is taken as 20/7/2017
Deadline for reduced charge is 3/8/2017
Deadline for Reps is 17/8/2017

Can't trawl through a long list of links.

Does it actually say this on the PCN?
Cos both wrong.


Apologies for the links, I thought I was being helpful in not clogging up the page with images. smile.gif

No it doesn't say those second two dates on the PCN. It was my attempt at trying to calculate the correct date at 1:30 this morning.

2 working days from 18/07 is 20/07. 14 days on is 03/08 and 28 days on is 17/08.

Have I miscalculated?

These are the first two pages
http://i67.tinypic.com/2mht25h.jpg



http://i63.tinypic.com/rl9u1y.jpg
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 17:21
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That 953 sign must be incorrect because taxis have access to all bus lanes in Bristol.

The PCN payment terms sets bells ringing----an 0870 premium number with a 2p per minute surcharge. Had this before I am sure in relation to the Credit Card case analogy.

Mick
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Incandescent
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 21:28
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 18:21) *
That 953 sign must be incorrect because taxis have access to all bus lanes in Bristol.

The PCN payment terms sets bells ringing----an 0870 premium number with a 2p per minute surcharge. Had this before I am sure in relation to the Credit Card case analogy.

Mick

In other words, an unlawful demand for money over and beyond the amount defined in law. Statutory grounds of "the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case". Bus lane regulations have no grounds of procedural impropriety (one has to ask why !), so this is the one that applies.
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Morrowitz
post Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 08:32
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Thanks all for your replies. This sounds very interesting.

The phone call charge can be argued as being a demand for money?

@Incandescent are you saying that the sign is OK? I had read that it had to be accompanied by an "Only" sign underneath.

I'm still a bit confused about the dates that were being questioned previously. Have I got the deadlines wrong?
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Incandescent
post Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 09:22
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QUOTE (Morrowitz @ Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 09:32) *
Thanks all for your replies. This sounds very interesting.

The phone call charge can be argued as being a demand for money?

@Incandescent are you saying that the sign is OK? I had read that it had to be accompanied by an "Only" sign underneath.

I'm still a bit confused about the dates that were being questioned previously. Have I got the deadlines wrong?

Needs checking about the word 'only', but an adjudicator will no doubt say the signage is "substantially compliant", and does not mislead the motorist.
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Morrowitz
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 15:27
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Thanks for the input so far. I think the reps are due in by 3/8/2017 but I'm not sure if I have anything grounds that are worth fighting.

Suggested issues with the PCN so far have been:

Automated phone charges
Signage missing a mandatory "Only" sign
Bus gate should be accompanied by red circle sign, not a blue sign.

Any more help with possible a possible reps case would be really appreciated.

or if you think I should just stump up for the fine...
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Morrowitz
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 20:47
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So it's taken me this long to realise the reps or payment are due tomorrow.
This is what I'm going with (just shy of the 3000 character limit on the website) so any last minute suggestions would be fab.

Dear Sir or Madam,
I write to appeal against the PCN on the following grounds:

1 - The 2p service charge for the telephone payment is an unlawful demand for money over and beyond the amount defined in law. Statutory grounds of "the penalty exceeded the relevant amount in the circumstances of the case".

There are further grounds on which I wish to appeal:

2 - The only warning sign before the bus gate is 220m before the bus gate (https://goo.gl/maps/pHwJDLNscSQ2 & http://i67.tinypic.com/1670ak2.jpg). It should be approximately 30m from the start according to the Traffic Signs Manual and TSGRD

3 - According to the TSRGD table 36 item 13 “The road marking “BUS GATE” means a road or part of a road indicated by the sign shown in Table 6 item 10, 11, 12 or 18 when varied to include at least an exception for buses.” These are all red circle signs and not the blue sign used.

4 - Referencing the blue signage the Traffic Signs Manual - 15.29 states “Where either a one-way or two-way road is reserved for buses and cycles, the entry points should be indicated by signs to diagram 953. The other end of a one-way road must have “no entry” signs to diagram 616 in accordance with paras 4.39 to 4.41. Where the order permits taxis to use the road or excludes cycles, the sign to diagram 953 shall be varied accordingly. As with contra-flow bus lanes, this sign must be used in combination with the “Only” plate to diagram 953.2. Where the road is for the exclusive use of buses, the sign to diagram 953 is varied to show only the bus symbol.” The “Only” sign is missing from both signs and is required http://i65.tinypic.com/jqkg9c.jpg (No "Only" sign)

5 - Also referencing the blue signage (953) figure 15-8 of the traffic signs manual states “Direction 20(1) does not permit diagram 953 to be used without the “Only” plate to diagram 953.2”.

6 - The PCN is for Code: 34J Being in a bus lane but I was never in a bus lane. There is nothing in the supplied images to suggest I was.

7 - Mitigation. On the morning of 12/7/2017 I took our two young children to a forest school on Romney Avenue, Bristol.
https://goo.gl/maps/HeEfApueioM2
It was the first time I had ever been along this road and was approaching from the south.
I parked at around 10 am, approximately 20 yds from the bus gate.
At 12:00 I returned to the car, loaded the children into and set off for home. I knew I had to take a left after the school to bring me back towards home but had already driven past the turning while looking for a parking space and not realised it. I set off down the road and almost immediately crossed the red painted section of road. I registered the sign but the lack of red painted road ahead and the lack of Bus Lane markings fooled me in to thinking the lane was either not in force yet (it’s a new development) or further ahead.
There was absolutely nothing for me to gain in using this bus lane and it turned a 1 mile journey in to 4 mile journey.

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Neil B
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 21:46
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Not sure what others think but I'd open with 7.

--
Only just looked back.

The period stated for reps is wrong: wording.
"within 28 days of ---" equates to your original calculation, adding a day.

This is compounded by the statement -
"Representations which are made after the end of this 28 day period may be disregarded"

The operative word 'made' is highly misleading.

The law says -
'the authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the 28 day period.'

Distinct and important difference.



--
and lo, we only have part of a PCN.

Where is the rest?


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 21:47
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:42) *
Not sure what others think but I'd open with 7.

--
Only just looked back.

The period stated for reps is wrong: wording.
"within 28 days of ---" equates to your original calculation, adding a day.

This is compounded by the statement -
"Representations which are made after the end of this 28 day period may be disregarded"

The operative word 'made' is highly misleading.

The law says -
'the authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the 28 day period.'

Distinct and important difference.


I too would open with 7, Neil I would save your points for adjudication, where Jackson in the Barnet case can be quoted
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Morrowitz
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 21:50
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:46) *
and lo, we only have part of a PCN.

Where is the rest?


All four pages should be at the top of the post.
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Neil B
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:06
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QUOTE (Morrowitz @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:50) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:46) *
and lo, we only have part of a PCN.

Where is the rest?


All four pages should be at the top of the post.

Ok, sorry; didn't look that far.

Nothing more I can see.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:47) *
Neil I would save your points for adjudication, where Jackson in the Barnet case can be quoted

Maybe.
I'm constantly bemused by people worrying about the discount.



--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Morrowitz
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:15
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Thanks so much for your help.
Will open with point 7.
I'll guess the most fitting option is "Other" as you can only tick one box online (seems to can select several on the PCN form)

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 23:06) *
Maybe.
I'm constantly bemused by people worrying about the discount.


I took it that the reps had to be in by 14 days in order to get a reset on the discount period. Having read again (for the nth time it feels) it mentions nothing about getting reps in by 14 days to get a reset.
Does this mean I have until 28 days and they will usually reset the clock?
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Neil B
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:20
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QUOTE (Morrowitz @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 23:15) *
I took it that the reps had to be in by 14 days in order to get a reset on the discount period.

If they do then yes.
It's discretionary. Some PCNs state a commitment to it.
For those that don't then frequent practice, i.e. other cases, count imo.

But the point is that, to fight, you have to go against full amount later.

I suppose it gives you thinking time.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Morrowitz
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:31
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Ah I see it now

Paragraph 5 of page 2 of the PCN states:

"If your representations are rejected the Council will generally extend the period within which the reduced penalty charge may be paid."

That is all under the 28 days and nothing to do with the 14 days.

More thinking time... smile.gif
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Neil B
post Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 22:38
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QUOTE (Morrowitz @ Tue, 1 Aug 2017 - 23:31) *
Ah I see it now

Paragraph 5 of page 2 of the PCN states:

"If your representations are rejected the Council will generally extend the period within which the reduced penalty charge may be paid."

That is all under the 28 days and nothing to do with the 14 days.

More thinking time... smile.gif

I think that still refers to reps received by 14th day. Be careful.

But not mentioning the 14 days there is very odd/unusual.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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