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PCN from council
John Bravo
post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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Hi All,
I hope you are well.
Some time ago I have received a PCN. I have done online representation to it. They have sent a letter asking to provide an invoice of car repair as a proof or accept the fine and pay £65 within 14 days.
After that I have scanned, uploaded and submitted a scanned document via their online system. Used exactly the same PCN number and car reg number to login to online appeal facility.
After 2 weeks I have received a Notice To Owner instead asking to pay £130, so no Notice of Rejection or Acceptance, so far.
What should I do now. I can only do a formal representation at the moment. I assume that the previous online representation was kind of informal.

I have these options on the list:
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I have sold the vehicle before that date
- I had brought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other

I was going to go for Other, but not sure how they treat Other in comparison to variant F - procedural impropriety.
Please advise.
Thank you
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post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Sep 2016 - 00:33
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OP, you have a NTO.
You cannot continue your pre-NTO challenge now but must make reps.
These would centre on the grounds of your initial challenge provided you knew what it was about your pre-NTO submissions which did not satisfy their prerequisites.
But you don't, yet.

I cannot find the date of issue of the NTO and so we don't know the latest date by which you need to make reps. Therefore we don't know how much time you have to establish the 'prerequisites'.




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Incandescent
post Tue, 20 Sep 2016 - 09:04
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+1

OP, you must respond (i.e. appeal), that NtO. The enforcement process follows a tramline-like path, and you deviate from it at your peril.

There's no point now in paying-up until you've gone to adjudication at TPT, as the penalty remains the same and cannot increase provided you follow the process.
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John Bravo
post Tue, 20 Sep 2016 - 17:21
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 20 Sep 2016 - 01:33) *
OP, you have a NTO.
You cannot continue your pre-NTO challenge now but must make reps.
These would centre on the grounds of your initial challenge provided you knew what it was about your pre-NTO submissions which did not satisfy their prerequisites.
But you don't, yet.

I cannot find the date of issue of the NTO and so we don't know the latest date by which you need to make reps. Therefore we don't know how much time you have to establish the 'prerequisites'.


The date of NTO is 8/09/2016
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 20 Sep 2016 - 19:35
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Tue, 20 Sep 2016 - 18:21) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 20 Sep 2016 - 01:33) *
OP, you have a NTO.
You cannot continue your pre-NTO challenge now but must make reps.
These would centre on the grounds of your initial challenge provided you knew what it was about your pre-NTO submissions which did not satisfy their prerequisites.
But you don't, yet.

I cannot find the date of issue of the NTO and so we don't know the latest date by which you need to make reps. Therefore we don't know how much time you have to establish the 'prerequisites'.


The date of NTO is 8/09/2016


O k got a bit of time then to think about representation to the council. My original thought was to major on the reason for the DK, but as they are half way to cancelling
on the breakdown, lets see if we can give them a push. Or at least reject without reason
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hcandersen
post Wed, 21 Sep 2016 - 04:03
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OP, the end of the 28-day period is 9 Oct.

You still have time to find out their prerequistes, so I suggest you write to them.

Dear Sir,
PCN No.******

I refer to your letter dated *** rejecting my challenge and additional evidence.

I have until 9 Oct. to make representations and therefore I should be grateful if you would elaborate on your 'prerequisites' so that I can ensure that I address these in my reps.

*******
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John Bravo
post Wed, 21 Sep 2016 - 17:13
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 21 Sep 2016 - 05:03) *
OP, the end of the 28-day period is 9 Oct.

You still have time to find out their prerequistes, so I suggest you write to them.

Dear Sir,
PCN No.******

I refer to your letter dated *** rejecting my challenge and additional evidence.

I have until 9 Oct. to make representations and therefore I should be grateful if you would elaborate on your 'prerequisites' so that I can ensure that I address these in my reps.

*******


Good, good
I am going to do that.
Thank you
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John Bravo
post Wed, 5 Oct 2016 - 09:33
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I have posted the letter in the morning on 26th (I have a receipt).
It is now more than a week and still no reply from them.
My 28-day period ends by the end of this week on 9th of October.
Please advise.
Thank you
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DancingDad
post Wed, 5 Oct 2016 - 09:38
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Patience is a virtue

Nothing to do except be patient until a reply appears.

Max time limit is 56 days from when they received your challenge, deemed 28th Sept.

4 weeks plus is normal.
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John Bravo
post Thu, 6 Oct 2016 - 21:13
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But I think I should make a representation by the end of this week regardless if they reply to me or not otherwise they increase the penalty by 50% making it worth £195.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 6 Oct 2016 - 21:24
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 6 Oct 2016 - 22:13) *
But I think I should make a representation by the end of this week regardless if they reply to me or not otherwise they increase the penalty by 50% making it worth £195.



Do I understand correctly, you posted the letter suggested by HCA.

If so then yes you must send your formal representations

Send something along the lines I suggested in post 22 do not miss the deadline I make that Sunday the 9th oct, can you do it online, remember to keep a copy of what you say

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 - 21:29
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hcandersen
post Thu, 6 Oct 2016 - 22:21
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Yes.

OP, you must make reps despite the fact that the authority have failed to reply to your letter requesting clarification.

IMO,
Contravention did not occur
Procedural impropriety

The alleged contravention is parking adjacent to dropped footway, contrary to s86 of the Traffic Management Act.

I accept that the location lies within a special enforcement area but the burden still lies with the authority to establish that the dropped footway meets the remaining criteria specified in the Act. I challenged the purpose of the dropped footway in my pre-NTO challenge but the authority ignored this and gave no reason in its response dated *** as regards the purpose of the dropped footway. I maintain that it is there for the sole purpose of facilitating the emptying of refuse bins (paladin or similar wheeled containers) from the adjacent premises. Given that there is no corresponding dropped footway on the other side of the road, its purpose cannot be to assist pedestrians to cross the road; and given that there isn't a vehicle crossover at the location it cannot be for the purpose of allowing vehicles to cross the footway. Thee is no cycle infrastructure present.

The authority must examine the purpose of the dropped kerb by contacting colleagues in the highways department and not just presume, as they have to date, that a lowered footway = 'dropped footway' as defined.

Procedural impropriety arises because the authority failed to respond to my letter dated *** seeking reasonable clarification of the jargon used in their response dated *** regarding the meaning of 'prerequisites'. I submitted evidence of my breakdown, which I also enclose with these representations, and received the response that it did not meet the authority's unilateral but unspecified 'prerequisites'. This response was neither helpful nor considered and if the authority reject these grounds then they are obliged to state clearly their reasons.

Something along these lines with anything else you want to throw in.

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John Bravo
post Fri, 7 Oct 2016 - 14:24
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@PASTMYBEST
Yes, I can do it online and you are right that I have to keep a copy of that text or take a screenshot.
To be honest with you they should improve this online system, they don't send an automated email so you don't have a proof of submitting it. The system displays this reference on the next page after submission, but if you rush and close the page you cannot go back and you practically cannot refer to anything.

@hcandersen
Thank you for your template.
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John Bravo
post Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 16:04
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I was just reading their initial letter and was wondering about this access to carriageway for prams or wheelchair users. Is there any exception for these big ambulances picking up elders?
I have seen these on the road of course, but I haven't seen a single one picking up people on this narrow road, but it would definitely involve blocking the whole road in the process.

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 16:05
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hcandersen
post Sat, 8 Oct 2016 - 21:30
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No.

86Prohibition of parking at dropped footways etc.

(1)In a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge where—
(a)the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway for the purpose of—
(i)assisting pedestrians crossing the carriageway,
(ii)assisting cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway, or
(iii)assisting vehicles entering or leaving the carriageway across the footway, cycle track or verge; or
(b)the carriageway has, for a purpose within paragraph (a)(i) to (iii), been raised to meet the level of the footway, cycle track or verge.



Crossing, not accessing or alighting.

Given that this prohibition does not require signs, it does not lie with an authority to mould the absolutely specific and limiting criteria as they choose otherwise motorists would be all at sea.
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John Bravo
post Sat, 15 Oct 2016 - 14:21
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smile.gif rolleyes.gif Final response:


We can then assume that some of their actions are not lawful and what they say not always correspond to government regulations.
Thank you hcandersen & PASTMYBEST for your input.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 15 Oct 2016 - 18:39
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Sat, 15 Oct 2016 - 15:21) *
smile.gif rolleyes.gif Final response:


We can then assume that some of their actions are not lawful and what they say not always correspond to government regulations.
Thank you hcandersen & PASTMYBEST for your input.


biggrin.gif

At least they knew when to quit, many end up at adjudication, or worse still end up paid angry4.gif
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John Bravo
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 21:35
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Hi All,
I hope you are all well.
I think this is going to be happening on annual basis now.

The "after midnight" runs of traffic officers has ceased not long after I have won this case.
It was quiet until now.
It has started with a ticket on my windscreen Sunday 9:05am then I saw a white BMW parked in there with a ticket behind the wiper twice in a row!

I am talking about exactly the same location where dropped kerb is only on one side of the street.
I have replied that the contravention did not occur and I had to fly away for a long holiday so after my return the only option left is to pay £130 or wait for NTO. This is well after 2 weeks of extended 50% off grace period.

Please advise.
Best regards,
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John U.K.
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 21:58
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Please can you fill in some dates? The timeline is not very clear.

QUOTE
The "after midnight" runs of traffic officers has ceased not long after I have won this case.
It was quiet until now.
It has started with a ticket on my windscreen Sunday
Date? 9:05am then I saw a white BMW parked in there with a ticket behind the wiper twice in a row!

I am talking about exactly the same location where dropped kerb is only on one side of the street.

I have replied Date? that the contravention did not occur
and

Date? I had to fly away for a long holiday so after my return Date?
the only option left is to pay £130Does this mean they have replied? or wait for NTO. This is well after 2 weeks of extended 50% off grace period.

Please advise
.


I suppose you could always take up their "Please do not hesitate to contact us if we can be of any further assistance" offer but best advice will come when we have the fuller picture.
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John Bravo
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 22:49
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 21:58) *
Please can you fill in some dates? The timeline is not very clear.

QUOTE
The "after midnight" runs of traffic officers has ceased not long after I have won this case.
It was quiet until now.
It has started with a ticket on my windscreen Sunday
23/07/2017 9:05am then I saw a white BMW parked in there with a ticket behind the wiper twice in a row!

I am talking about exactly the same location where dropped kerb is only on one side of the street.

I have replied Between 4th-5th of August (within 14 days period) that the contravention did not occur
and

they issued a letter on the 11th of August (Friday), I took off on the 14th (Monday) perhaps on the day when the letter has arrived or the day after I had to fly away for a long holiday so after my return 28/08/2017
the only option left is to pay £130Yes, letter dated: 11th of August or wait for NTO. This is well after 2 weeks of extended 50% off grace period.

Please advise
.


I suppose you could always take up their "Please do not hesitate to contact us if we can be of any further assistance" offer but best advice will come when we have the fuller picture.


fyi

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 22:50
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John Bravo
post Fri, 1 Sep 2017 - 14:07
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Anyone please?
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