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PCN from council
John Bravo
post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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Hi All,
I hope you are well.
Some time ago I have received a PCN. I have done online representation to it. They have sent a letter asking to provide an invoice of car repair as a proof or accept the fine and pay £65 within 14 days.
After that I have scanned, uploaded and submitted a scanned document via their online system. Used exactly the same PCN number and car reg number to login to online appeal facility.
After 2 weeks I have received a Notice To Owner instead asking to pay £130, so no Notice of Rejection or Acceptance, so far.
What should I do now. I can only do a formal representation at the moment. I assume that the previous online representation was kind of informal.

I have these options on the list:
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I have sold the vehicle before that date
- I had brought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other

I was going to go for Other, but not sure how they treat Other in comparison to variant F - procedural impropriety.
Please advise.
Thank you
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post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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John Bravo
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:19
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Why should I?
I have completed online form - appeal within specified time. I have the reference number. They have simply ignored this fact and claim that I have not done anything.
I can imagine hundreds of people threatened by this council.
Where is the justice, why are they allowed to use these practices without any limit? There are 2 realms one is Highway Code and second is what the council can really do.
And this looks like a new form of taxation because their objective is to make people pay it sooner than later for peace of mind.
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cp8759
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:14
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:19) *
Why should I?

If you look at the wording of the letter is says "we would like to take this opportunity to offer payment of £130 in full and final settlement of this case"

I believe Longtime Lurker was suggesting you accept the council's offer that they pay you £130 to you in full and final settlement.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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John Bravo
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:20
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I have another question.
Should I ask the council to provide me their IT log that this appeal has been submitted on this date and time so I can prove to the adjudicator?
I have a screenshot of this confirmation number and date and time of the screenshot, but that is all.
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Incandescent
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:38
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:20) *
I have another question.
Should I ask the council to provide me their IT log that this appeal has been submitted on this date and time so I can prove to the adjudicator?
I have a screenshot of this confirmation number and date and time of the screenshot, but that is all.

What you've got is enough. If they disagree, they must prove otherwise at adjudication.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:46
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:07) *
No way---the OP has nothing further to lose in taking this case to adjudication. If they had offered the discount that would be another matter.

Mick


They really are muppets. If they claim to have not received reps they are supposed to give you an opportunity to make them The

see page 23 stat decs and witness statements here

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...-16%20final.pdf
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John Bravo
post Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:42
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:14) *
QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:19) *
Why should I?

If you look at the wording of the letter is says "we would like to take this opportunity to offer payment of £130 in full and final settlement of this case"

I believe Longtime Lurker was suggesting you accept the council's offer that they pay you £130 to you in full and final settlement.


Are they going to pay me? I don't think it's the case. They can always turn around and say it has been written in error.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 10:46) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Thu, 11 Jan 2018 - 09:07) *
No way---the OP has nothing further to lose in taking this case to adjudication. If they had offered the discount that would be another matter.

Mick


They really are muppets. If they claim to have not received reps they are supposed to give you an opportunity to make them The

see page 23 stat decs and witness statements here

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/de...-16%20final.pdf


They keep trying as long as some people give up and provide undisrupted money flow.
Thank you for finding this.
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cp8759
post Sun, 14 Jan 2018 - 22:53
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 15:42) *
Are they going to pay me? I don't think it's the case. They can always turn around and say it has been written in error.

I don't think that's the case either, but there's no harm in asking. But then if they admit they've made (yet another) error, that's another procedural impropriety to add to the list.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 08:47
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IMO, reading the letter as a whole and not just a poorly drafted paragraph taken out of context, it's meaning is absolutely clear: they are offering you the chance to pay them the full penalty rather than them have to refer the matter to the adjudicator. When read as a whole, it's clear. So IMO let's move on.

And OP it is not for you to register an appeal either, the authority undertake to do this after expiry of the 14-day payment period.

And it's only recommended ETA practice for an authority to either supply a copy of the NOR or reconsider reps if originals were mislaid, IMO there's no legal imperative. So let them get on with it.

Meanwhile, OP pl post clear pics of the council's photos, it's very difficult to see photos in letters.

If all is the same, then play a straight bat and appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not occur. You've got the basics of a draft written some time ago (aah, memories of my honeymoon, the California Zephyr, The Rockies - and this isn't a reference to SWMBO's anatomy, but it could be biggrin.gif )...

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 08:49
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John Bravo
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 19:18
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Hi again Gents,
Just to update you.
Since the court has cancelled their bit and the thing has come back to Tower Hamlets and I think this was good 3 weeks ago, they have not come back to me as of yet.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 22:10
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 19:18) *
Hi again Gents,
Just to update you.
Since the court has cancelled their bit and the thing has come back to Tower Hamlets and I think this was good 3 weeks ago, they have not come back to me as of yet.

Tower Hamlets are notoriously thick and stupid on the law they purport to enforce, so don't let matters slide, you need to keep on top of them by phone regularly. However three weeks is not a long time on a council calendar.
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Neil B
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 00:24
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 14 Feb 2018 - 22:10) *
However three weeks is not a long time on a council calendar.

+1

If they've referred to adjudicator you'd maybe hear soon.

Then again, adjudicator may be querying with them why they haven't further tried to resolve it with you by -

a) Asking for a copy of your reps, if they are claiming not to have received, or

b) Sending you a copy of their rejection, if they are claiming to have sent one. Withe option to then appeal
to LT.

Phone and see, as Inc. said or give it a week and come back.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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John Bravo
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:16
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I have just received from Tower Hamlets a large letter with a bunch of pages. Yes, they have passed the case to the Tribunal. Unbelievable how much paper they are wasting.
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Neil B
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:21
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 12:16) *
I have just received from Tower Hamlets a large letter with a bunch of pages. Yes, they have passed the case to the Tribunal. Unbelievable how much paper they are wasting.

So, since you are missing a rejection, is there one?

We need to also see -

- The index
- Their summary statement of the case.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:41
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And
if you've received what sounds like an evidence pack, it would seem a hearing is imminent?
Have you heard anything from LT?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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John Bravo
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:48
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Yes, it's their TH evidence pack

Nothing from London Tribunal as of yet.
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Neil B
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:51
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And the docs requested?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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John Bravo
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 14:14
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It looks like 1st they have not acknowledged my online representation on 1st of October - implied that I have not submitted one , but from the paperwork they have sent I can see page Correspondence: Online Post-NTO Representation
with my input: "There has been a procedural impropriety by Enforcement Authority..." which they have rejected.

There is a bunch of Evidence Forms, scans and past correspondence including scans of County Court forms. I cannot see a definitive statement from them apart from initial contravention.
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Neil B
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 14:24
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 14:14) *
It looks like 1st they have not acknowledged my online representation on 1st of October - implied that I have not submitted one , but from the paperwork they have sent I can see page Correspondence: Online Post-NTO Representation
with my input: "There has been a procedural impropriety by Enforcement Authority..." which they have rejected.

There is a bunch of Evidence Forms, scans and past correspondence including scans of County Court forms. I cannot see a definitive statement from them apart from initial contravention.

Ok.
You are seeing (and interpreting) we can't.

Please SHOW us.

You need to keep on top of this.
Phone LT tomorrow to find out what is happening.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:13


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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John Bravo
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:04
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I think I understand now where is this going, among these letters I can see one letter dated 18th of October - a formal Notice of Rejection.
where they ask to pay £130 or appeal to ETA where they also provide verification code 8xxxxx to londontribunals.org.uk

I have never received this letter! This bad admin is on purpose!
So they can screw me up with their missing letters,
Before I have challenged online this bloody PCN twice with no single email response from them or their system, but I can read these rejections just now!
This is ridiculous.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:13
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OP, pl accept that what follows is meant in your best interests:

Stop bleating;
Stop calling them names;
Post docs, don't give us your precis of them.

You would be at adjudication I presume if you had received the NOR so, in the scheme of things, what's changed?

We must see their evidence case summary and your reps and their NOR. There you have it, all the key items at this stage.

No editorial, no narrative, just docs pl.
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