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PCN from council
John Bravo
post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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Hi All,
I hope you are well.
Some time ago I have received a PCN. I have done online representation to it. They have sent a letter asking to provide an invoice of car repair as a proof or accept the fine and pay £65 within 14 days.
After that I have scanned, uploaded and submitted a scanned document via their online system. Used exactly the same PCN number and car reg number to login to online appeal facility.
After 2 weeks I have received a Notice To Owner instead asking to pay £130, so no Notice of Rejection or Acceptance, so far.
What should I do now. I can only do a formal representation at the moment. I assume that the previous online representation was kind of informal.

I have these options on the list:
A - The alleged Contravention did not occur
B I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of contravention
- I have sold the vehicle before that date
- I had brought the vehicle after that date
- I have never owned that vehicle
C - The vehicle was taken without my consent
D - We are a hire firm and have supplied details
E - The Penalty Charge exceeds the relevant amount
F - There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority
G - The traffic order contravened is invalid
H - The Notice should not have been served because the Penalty Charge had already been paid
I - Other

I was going to go for Other, but not sure how they treat Other in comparison to variant F - procedural impropriety.
Please advise.
Thank you
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post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:48
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 21:58
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Post up the PCN your informal challenge any reply from the council and a copy of the document you sent as evidence.

The regulations require that not withstanding that you did not receive a reply to your informal challenge you must respond to the NTO as stipulated
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John Bravo
post Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 14:34
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 9 Sep 2016 - 22:58) *
Post up the PCN your informal challenge any reply from the council and a copy of the document you sent as evidence.

The regulations require that not withstanding that you did not receive a reply to your informal challenge you must respond to the NTO as stipulated

1st letter dated 15th of August



2nd letter issued 8th of September



Invoice:


My communication with them was online, so I do not have a copy of that.

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 14:38
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Incandescent
post Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 15:28
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Many councils have very poor admin in their parking departments, so getting this NtO is about par for the course. As PMB says, you now have to appeal the NtO on the same lines, except this time you can include a copy of your repairs invoice,. Make sure also submit the copy of their letter requesting the repairs invoice, point out this was submitted as an on-line copy on nn/nn/nnnn as they requested.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 15:35
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I hope the first letter is shown in full. stating that if you make reps against the NTO and the are refused, without telling you you have the right to appeal to the adjudicator is out of order
Can you get the council photos and post them, lets have a look at the contravention
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John Bravo
post Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 20:55
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 16:35) *
I hope the first letter is shown in full. stating that if you make reps against the NTO and the are refused, without telling you you have the right to appeal to the adjudicator is out of order
Can you get the council photos and post them, lets have a look at the contravention

Hi Pastmybest
The contravention did occur, because there is a lowered kerb. On my street there is a lowered kerb in front of main entrances to terraced housing buildings. I think the reason for that is for moving big bins once every Tuesday.
Pedestrians do not use them as they usually walk on the pavement or filter between parked cars if they want to cross this narrow road - two way traffic, but single lane, cars are parked on both sides of this road.
When the car has broken down late evening I wanted it to be taken to my address, but we were unable to find a single parking space in 0.5m distance. I decided and asked the man to drop it in front of the main entrance to my flat.
The car has been fixed on the road the same day. It turned out alternator replacement do not require a car to be taken to the garage.

Best regards,
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 21:35
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Hi John

Are we going to go back and fro again re the law. the contravention only occurs if the kerb is lowered for specific reasons, and moving the bins is not one of them
there have been adjudications on this very point. Also if your car was broken down this is a statutory exemption so you have a good case.

Unless you intend to pay at the discounted rate, give us the info and we can give you a good shot at winning
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Neil B
post Sun, 11 Sep 2016 - 01:22
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 10 Sep 2016 - 22:35) *
give us the info

Everything you've obscured or cropped, except name, VRM, PCN No.
We need EVERYTHING else.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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John Bravo
post Sun, 11 Sep 2016 - 22:03
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I think that's all I've got. I had to increase brightness of this picture a little bit.
Everything else I have obscured are their logos, post address and phone numbers.



Actually I cannot see the reg number on these pictures.

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 - 22:15
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Neil B
post Sun, 11 Sep 2016 - 22:50
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Sun, 11 Sep 2016 - 23:03) *
Everything else I have obscured are their logos, post address and phone numbers.

and -
PCN,
dates,
location.

Ok, thanks.

Bye then.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 08:37
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John we do not ask for info, to stalk you, nor does it matter if the council see the thread, we will never tell you to lie, so what they could read might help them understand they are wrong

Your argument re broken down should be strong enough, give them a copy of the proof. If not come back with all the details and we will try to help
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Jo Carn
post Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 11:50
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Was the car technically "parked"? It was delivered and dropped off. Could you give a fridge/freeze a ticket? Same difference.

Also, if you didn't park it then can you argue that it is the delivery company who should pay as it would be there responsibility to deliver it somewhere that did not impede or contravene?

Just a thought
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 11:54
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QUOTE (Jo Carn @ Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 12:50) *
Was the car technically "parked"? It was delivered and dropped off. Could you give a fridge/freeze a ticket? Same difference.

Also, if you didn't park it then can you argue that it is the delivery company who should pay as it would be there responsibility to deliver it somewhere that did not impede or contravene?

Just a thought



Not the best thought you've had Jo you know the owner is liable
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southpaw82
post Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 13:15
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QUOTE (Jo Carn @ Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 12:50) *
Was the car technically "parked"? It was delivered and dropped off. Could you give a fridge/freeze a ticket? Same difference.

Also, if you didn't park it then can you argue that it is the delivery company who should pay as it would be there responsibility to deliver it somewhere that did not impede or contravene?

Just a thought

This isn't the place to discuss your incorrect theories.

This post has been edited by southpaw82: Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 13:16


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 13:39
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QUOTE
On my street there is a lowered kerb in front of main entrances to terraced housing buildings. I think the reason for that is for moving big bins once every Tuesday.


Could you find this on streetview and provide a link please?
The lowered kerb has to be for a prescribed use and moving bins isn't one of them.
This may be a better avenue then having broken down the recovery vehicle dropped you where you (maybe) should not have been.
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John Bravo
post Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 22:37
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 12 Sep 2016 - 14:39) *
QUOTE
On my street there is a lowered kerb in front of main entrances to terraced housing buildings. I think the reason for that is for moving big bins once every Tuesday.


Could you find this on streetview and provide a link please?
The lowered kerb has to be for a prescribed use and moving bins isn't one of them.
This may be a better avenue then having broken down the recovery vehicle dropped you where you (maybe) should not have been.

Hi Dancing Dad
Please have a look.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5000904,-...3312!8i6656
Best regards,
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Sep 2016 - 08:28
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Hi John

This is the relevant regulation from TMA2004

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

You can see the specific reasons that apply to create a contravention at 1(a) (i, ii, iii)

The footpath cannot have been lowered to aid pedestrians in crossing, there is no corresponding DK opposite. Obviously it is not for vehicles to gain access nor is it for cycles.
Your local knowledge that it is to aid the binmen has credence. as per this case

2150447278

The Penalty Charge Notice was issued when the appellant’s car was parked adjacent to a dropped kerb outside Mr Schafer’s home in Chatsworth Way. The local authority states that the dropped kerb is outside a house in multi-occupation and that the purpose of the dropped kerb is to allow access to

bins.

Section 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004 defines the contravention of parking adjacent to a dropped footway.

It states that in a special enforcement area a vehicle must not be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a footway, cycle track or verge where the footway, cycle track or verge has been lowered to meet the level of the carriageway for the purpose of assisting pedestrians to cross the carriageway, and cyclists or motorists to enter of leave the carriageway

The restriction does not need to be signed or marked. The restriction is enforceable at all times.

Mr Schafer states that he has parked at this location outside his home for several years. His neighbours have also parked at the location. Mr Schafer had his left foot amputated when he was a very young child. He states that at the time that he parked his car he was in considerable pain and could not park further from his home.

The contravention occurs if a vehicle is parked adjacent to a kerb that has been lowered to assist pedestrians to cross the carriageway and cyclists or motorists to enter of leave the carriageway. The local authority does not state that the dropped herb was for any of these purposes. It states that it was to allow access to bins.

I allow this appeal as I find that the appellant’s car was not parked adjacent to a dropped kerb as defined in section 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004.




Further at 8(a) the fact that the vehicle could not be moved for reasons beyond the control of the driver give an exemption. If the car had broken down you could not move it. It doesn't matter how it got there, had you been driving and the engine failed and you pulled over, you are in the same position

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John Bravo
post Tue, 13 Sep 2016 - 19:58
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Hi Pastmybest,
Thank you for your insightfulness.
What should I do in this case?
I was about to appeal again and explain that I have submitted this invoice at my second online appeal, but for some reason not taken into account or missed. Of course I was going to attach this document once again, but I don't want to overdo if you know what I mean.
Best regards,
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Sep 2016 - 20:10
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Hold up a bit, lets get things together. You must now make formal representations against the NTO so we want to put everything in even if only briefly, adjudicators like consistency

Two questions .

What is the date of the Notice to owner (second letter)?

Do you hold a permit for the parking bays outside the building?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 14 Sep 2016 - 16:40
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SWMBO has allowed me time off.

OP, I do not see that you have any defence against the contravention.

Your vehicle broke down and you chose to have it moved to an apparently restricted location. The breakdown is not relevant IMO because that is not the reason for the contravention which is that you chose to have it left there - unless you can show that the driver of the tow truck left it there against your instructions.
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