Multiple PCNs (most issued late) Options

[jj007]

Hi I have just recieved 4 PCNs for the same contravention. They are all from the last few months - I have heard the local council must issue a PCN within 28 days which would make all but 1 invalid. But would welcome your thoughts on this as well as other potential avenues of appeal.

Local Authority: Newham
Contravention: 52m

PCN 1
Contravention date: 12/09/2020 15:18
PCN Issue date: 26/11/2020
PCN Receive date: 27/11/2020

PCN 2
Contravention date: 12/09/2020 18:33
PCN Issue date: 26/11/2020
PCN Receive date: 27/11/2020


PCN 3
Contravention date: 27/09/2020 13:17
PCN Issue date: 26/11/2020
PCN Receive date: 27/11/2020


PCN 4
Contravention date: 04/11/2020 11:44
PCN Issue date: 26/11/2020
PCN Receive date: 27/11/2020

As you can see from the above, all 4 PCN's were issued on the same day (which for 3 of them is over 28 days from the contravention date). My only concern is that whilst I am the registered keeper (my name is on the v5), it is a company vehicle so it is registered at the company address, meaning the council could argue that the delay was because of obtaining the correct address. But saying that, my company policy is that if a PCN is sent to them, they would either pay it off and bill me later or forwarded it to me - none of these happened so not sure how the council could have sent it directly to me. What are your thoughts?

Secondly, when going to the council website to appeal for all of them, I am shown a message saying that this is not possible as an NTO has already been issued which I have not even received - could this be because I am trying to appeal 28 days after the contravention? I am still within the 28 days appeal period from the issue date though. Is this expected behaviour on the website?

Whilst I am not sure I have much to appeal about for the actual contravention (was my fault for not spotting newly enforced restrictions - feel free to say otherwise), I do believe I may have a case for receiving 3 of the 4 PCNs over 28 days after the contravention occurred. Also, could I appeal on the basis that if the first PCN was issued on time then the others would not have happened?

Below is the first PCN fully scanned:

Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4

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[jj007]

So what should my appeal be focused on? Procedural impropriety?

[jj007]

Any other help on what I should write for my appeal will be much appreciated....

[cp8759]

Any other help on what I should write for my appeal will be much appreciated....

Well we're trying but you're still refusing to show us the rest of the rejection letter

[jj007]

Any other help on what I should write for my appeal will be much appreciated....

Well we're trying but you're still refusing to show us the rest of the rejection letter

I uploaded it a few pages up. That was literally it, just 2 pages as the form was missing.

[cp8759]

So let's get this straight (sorry I'm not going to read back through 6 pages): You're saying you're the actual owner of the vehicle, and the C/O address is just used as a forwarding address for whatever reason? If so, what evidence do you have to show that you own the vehicle (i.e. have legal title to it)?

[jj007]

So let's get this straight (sorry I'm not going to read back through 6 pages): You're saying you're the actual owner of the vehicle, and the C/O address is just used as a forwarding address for whatever reason? If so, what evidence do you have to show that you own the vehicle (i.e. have legal title to it)?

So to summarise, I am the actual owner, the reason for a C/O address is down to the agreement. I have taken credit with the company to purchase this vehicle, they preferred to keep themselves as the C/O until the balance was paid off. In the grand scheme of things, this was a pointless agreement because it just complicates matters such as this one because unlike 99% of their other agreements, this one was a credit purchase, not a lease. In terms of evidence, I have my contract (which I sent with my initial appeal) that I signed that clearly shows that this is a credit purchase where I would pay a fixed amount (including interest) over a fixed period. There is a not a single mention of lease. On this contract, there is also a section about how the company have an obligation to purchase back this vehicle should I wish to exercise this option. To me this is sufficient to prove that I am the owner otherwise how can I take credit on a vehicle that I do not own? And how can I sell back a vehicle to the company if I did not own it?

[cp8759]

Well let's simplify this a bit: do you have proof of purchase for the car? Like a receipt from a dealer with your name on it?

[jj007]

Well let's simplify this a bit: do you have proof of purchase for the car? Like a receipt from a dealer with your name on it?

No receipt, the contract is the main proof. Below are some relevant extracts from the contract:

We agree to sell and you agree to buy the Vehicle described in the Schedule for the Total Cash Price on credit, subject to these terms and
conditions. The relevant details and details of the Amount of Credit ("the Loan") and the Total Charge for Credit are set out on the front page.

You will own the vehicle financed from the beginning of the agreement but are not permitted to sell it until you have made all payments due, including the final payment.

Title to the Vehicle shall pass to you delivery.

(Think it was meant to read upon delivery)

You have the right, subject to the terms of this clause, to require us to buy back the Vehicle from you at the end of the Term, provided that you give us written notice of at least 30 days before the Final Payment becomes due.
Title to the Vehicle shall transfer to us when we receive the Vehicle.

Those are just some examples to clearly outline that I am the owner of this vehicle as per the contract that I signed. There is no lease or hire agreement whatsoever.

[jj007]

Is the contract enough to prove that I am the owner and that the company was not in a position to make representations on my behalf?

[hcandersen]

OP, I think you're doing this to death and beating yourself up unnecessarily.

addressee -

the person to whom something is addressed.

address

the particulars of the place where someone lives or an organization is situated.


C/O does not confer any rights - even to open b****y mail - upon anyone at the address other than the person to whom a letter is addressed unless that person has conferred those rights.(or other exceptional circumstances which do not apply here)

So, the burden lies everywhere except with you, so pl stop beating yourself up on the issue.

The authority:
Had no power to consider submissions from anyone other than the addressee unless the person making those submissions included with those submissions evidence in the form of written authority from the addressee which conferred such power.

The company:
Had no authority to open mail addressed to you, unless you had granted such authority.

IMO.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 - 12:10

[cp8759]

Is the contract enough to prove that I am the owner and that the company was not in a position to make representations on my behalf?

Without having seen the whole contract I can't say with 100% certainty, but from the extracts you've posted, it sure looks sufficient to prove you own the vehicle. As HCA says, the company had no authority to make representations on your behalf.

Again please forgive me for not trawling through the thread, but who is the NoR actually addressed to?

[jj007]

Is the contract enough to prove that I am the owner and that the company was not in a position to make representations on my behalf?

Without having seen the whole contract I can't say with 100% certainty, but from the extracts you've posted, it sure looks sufficient to prove you own the vehicle. As HCA says, the company had no authority to make representations on your behalf.

Again please forgive me for not trawling through the thread, but who is the NoR actually addressed to?

The NoR is addressed to me at my residential address that the company gave to the Authority in when they transferred liability.

[cp8759]

The only issue I can see is that you have not suffered any real prejudice, even though the High Court has said prejudice is irrelevant, some adjudicators are, let's say, a bit rebellious.

For now you might as well just register the appeal with "I rely on my formal representations" and see if they bother contesting it. As the discount isn't on offer, there's really no point in paying now.

[jj007]

The only issue I can see is that you have not suffered any real prejudice, even though the High Court has said prejudice is irrelevant, some adjudicators are, let's say, a bit rebellious.

For now you might as well just register the appeal with "I rely on my formal representations" and see if they bother contesting it. As the discount isn't on offer, there's really no point in paying now.

They have access to previous representations? So I can literally just say “I rely on my formal representations”?

[cp8759]

The only issue I can see is that you have not suffered any real prejudice, even though the High Court has said prejudice is irrelevant, some adjudicators are, let's say, a bit rebellious.

For now you might as well just register the appeal with "I rely on my formal representations" and see if they bother contesting it. As the discount isn't on offer, there's really no point in paying now.

They have access to previous representations? So I can literally just say “I rely on my formal representations”?

The council has to supply a copy of all the paperwork if it chooses to contest the appeal, so yes you can just put that. You can always make additional submissions later on if you want.

[jj007]

So I appealed in 2 batches (due to how the NoRs arrived). 1 batch had 3 PCNs being appealed and the other had 1 being appealed. The batch of 3 I was successful but the batch with the single PCN was refused. Strange thing is that the same adjudicator assessed both batches. Both my appeals for each batch were exactly the same.

The interesting thing is that in batch 1 the reason for my appeal being successful was not to do with the points I raised but more to do with Newham messing up in their NoR (they should have addressed my grounds for appeal but instead just gave a generic response.). Even though the NoR was the same for the second batch, this was not considered. Is there anything I can now do or do I just suck it up and pay the £130 for the single PCN appeal that was refused?

This post has been edited by jj007: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 - 10:58

[Neil B]

What are the case numbers?

[jj007]

What are the case numbers?

To keep anonymity, can I just send the adjudicator reasons instead?

[PASTMYBEST]

What are the case numbers?

To keep anonymity, can I just send the adjudicator reasons instead?

You can if you want but those of us that regularly peruse the register will see it anyway those that do not i am sure would like to see the reasons