40mph in a 20 zone |
40mph in a 20 zone |
Sun, 26 Dec 2021 - 19:14
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Member No.: 113,416 |
Hi everybody,
I am looking for a bit of guidance on what to do. I have no previous motoring or criminal convictions exluding three points picked up in 2019. Several months ago, I was stuck behind a car going slower than the speed limit for a long period of time. As I pulled back in from the overtake, a policeman holding a radar was about 300m away. He signalled me to pull in which I did, we had the conversation "Do you know how fast you were going, etc." Long story short, although it was brief, I was caught doing 40mph in a 20 zone. I was very polite with the officer which he has included in his witness statement. The incident took place on Pampisford Road, Croydon. Emotionally, this is a pain in the arse as the car that I was overtaking was almost certainly not road legal (broken brake lights, suspect bald tyres, etc. ). Meanwhile, my personal car is well looked after mechanically and all the safety features frequently checked. I'm also ex-military and have previously done advanced driving courses (though unfortunately these don't carry over to civilian licences). How are people driving unsafe vehicles whilst doing their make-up using their rearview mirror getting away with poor driving because they are going under the speed limit? Rant over, I'm sure that the experts on these forums have heard this all before over a thousand times. I recently received the Single Justice Procedure Notice informing me of the above offence. It was received 5 months and 28 days after the offence, so just inside the six month window. There are no clear errors on the paperwork reference any of my details or the vehicle details. There is a detail in the officer's statement that I do take issue with though. It states "I was facing north west with a clear and unobstructed view of traffic travelling south west towards me." This is incorrect, as facing North West looks into houses. He would not have had a clear and unobstructed view of traffic unless he was facing North East. This is likely just an error on his behalf, but I thought it would be worth asking the question here to you experts. I have contacted a Road Traffic Barister called Simon Collingham but have not yet signed anything or made any payment. His view is that I have no leg to stand on and that it doesn't matter if the officer made a mistake in his statement, so to do my best to avoid a ban I should: - Show genuine remorse about the danger I posed to other road users, have letters written from my partner or close friends to explain how much I resent my actions, etc. - Enrol myself on a Speed Awareness Course (self-paid) to show this to the judge. - Explain how I need my vehicle for my work. I drive a lot of miles per year, 20k - 25k. I own a small fitness business which exclusively employs ex-military personel, whose income would be at risk if I am unable to attend work. I work a lot of hours (16+ a day, 7 days a week) which results in my driving at hours where public transport isn't really an option. The business has also suffered badly due to the pandemic and lockdowns (as everybody has as well). Furthermore, from my own point of view, would it help if I: - Showed the full service history of the vehicule to prove safety and maintenance - Prove my No Claims with my insurance company to evidence that I have had no accidents since I started driving - Set-up a monthly payment to a charity which helps with road-side deaths/injuries My questions are: 1) I am assuming that the best course of action is to turn up to court (suited and booted), pleading guilty and doing everything possible to avoid a ban. Is this correct? 2) From my own research online, using legal advice is very helpful (i.e. the Road Traffic Barrister). Is this correct? 3) What else should I do or not do? All advice is greatly appreciated. Please don't hesitate to ask if I need to add further specific details. |
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Sun, 26 Dec 2021 - 19:14
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Sun, 26 Dec 2021 - 20:01
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,271 Joined: 16 Jul 2015 Member No.: 78,384 |
Your previous good record like no claims with insurance, proving full service history have no effect this way.
You cannot enrol in Speed Awareness Course, you are way too fast. You do not have to get a lawyer. For this case it would be disqualify 7 to 28 days or 4 to 6 points and Band B fine (100% of your relevant weekly income minus 33% for early guilty plea, plus £85 costs plus victim surcharge - 10% of fine minimum £34. Road Traffic Barister called Simon Collingham is correct you do not have a leg to stand on. The best you do is plea guilty and then send it back. If the Justice consider banning you he would refer you to normal Magistrate Court. You cannot attend Single Justice Procedure Notice hearing and you will be informed of the decision in writing by post. |
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Sun, 26 Dec 2021 - 20:10
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,746 Joined: 29 Oct 2008 Member No.: 23,623 |
Sentencing for speeding is quite prescriptive and nothing you have said is likely to persuade the court to depart from the guidelines. These suggest a fine of a week's net income (reduced by a third for a guilty plea) and either 4-6 points or a ban of between 7 and 28 days. You will also pay prosecution costs of £85 and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (minimum £34).
The overwhelming likelihood is six points (the band of seriousness covers 31-40mph so you are right at the top of that range). If you respond to the SJPN by saying you'd like the matter to be dealt with under the SJ procedure, unless the SJ considers a ban is appropriate, you will simply be informed of the outcome together with details of how to pay your fine/costs etc. In the very unlikely event the SJ believes a ban should be considered your case will be adjourned for a hearing in the normal court which you will be invited to attend. In short, you do not need to attend court (you cannot attend a Single Justice hearing anyway and nor can your representative); you do not need to enrol on a speed awareness course even if you could; you do not need to provide any of the other details you have suggested. You most certainly do not need to make payments to a charity and nor do you need to pay a solicitor or barrister for anything. Simply plead guilty via your response to the SJPN. This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 - 20:11 |
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Mon, 27 Dec 2021 - 04:24
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
You are overthinking this.
Magistrates almost always sentence according to their guidelines which suggest very likely six points or the small chance of a ban of 28 days or almost certainly less. You can potentially have a small influence towards points by saying "I understand I will receive a number of points on my licence for this and rest assured it will be a constant reminder to moderate my speed" or similar. Almost everything else aggravates your case. If you overtook one car travelling at less than 20mph by accelerating to 40mph intending to return to the speed limit, then your driving sounds very aggressive. Or, you didn't intend to return to the 20mph limit. I appreciate you are aggrieved at passing some at speed and also noticing their bald tyres, but pointing out there are worse drivers than you will not be news to the magistrate(s). As you don't appear to have any defence the best option is to fall on your sword and not to make them think you would do the same thing again if you encountered someone driving marginally below the speed limit. The only potential option to check is to email the council and ask for the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) that created the 20mph limit. They will normally email you the PDF quickly as it is a public document. If there are mistakes on there, as has happened in the past, the limit is not enforceable and at best will remain at 30mph, which would reduce your points/fine although the police/CPS may well drop it out of embarrassment anyway. |
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Mon, 27 Dec 2021 - 08:56
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,074 Joined: 17 Nov 2015 Member No.: 80,686 |
Others have covered it really - none of what you propose is likely to make the blindest bit of difference and indeed some could make matter worse!! (Judge: So you are driving when extremely tired on a daily basis Mr. Mentalist?)
With a clean driving history and insurance record none of thus is likely to be too impactful so some remorse is the best you can offer, but unless they're considering a ban you won't need to attend anyway. |
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Mon, 27 Dec 2021 - 09:51
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 601 Joined: 7 May 2019 Member No.: 103,734 |
Making donations to a charity is by far the best idea you have had. I recommend that.
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Wed, 29 Dec 2021 - 08:33
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Member No.: 113,416 |
Thank you very much for the replies, it is much appreciated. I will be pleading guilty and await the outcome.
If this does go to a Magistrate Court for the consideration of a ban, is it worth using a Road Traffic Barrister or solicitor or is there no benefit to doing so? The only potential option to check is to email the council and ask for the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) that created the 20mph limit. They will normally email you the PDF quickly as it is a public document. If there are mistakes on there, as has happened in the past, the limit is not enforceable and at best will remain at 30mph, which would reduce your points/fine although the police/CPS may well drop it out of embarrassment anyway. I will phone the council today and double check the above reference the TRO, on the off-chance that there are mistakes which make the limit unenforceable. I've not heard of this before so this will be interesting. Are there any topics on this forum where this has been successful? Thanks again for your help. |
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Wed, 29 Dec 2021 - 09:27
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
There have been a number of cases, finding them now would be very hard.
Typical errors include, start and end points incorrect and wrong names (using a locally used name rather than the official name). For clarity, it is the TRO that sets the limit, the signage on the road merely informs you of what the TRO has set, it’s presence doesn’t establish the speed limit. A quick Google (other search engines are available) found this article as an example https://www.lincolnshireworld.com/news/poli...y-fined-3216352 This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 - 09:32 -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Wed, 29 Dec 2021 - 12:39
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#9
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,214 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
There was a case some years ago that the late Peter Harry (Bluedart on here) was running in Chideock. Off the top of my head the TRO purported to set one end of the limit with reference to a junction with Seatown Road - which technically did not exist as it was merely an informal name given by the locals to Duck Street.
There was also an issue with the TRO for the Severn Bridge - the signage indicated a reduced speed limit for a sizeable distance to the east of the tolls and a small distance to the west. The TRO indicated that its author didn't know which way was East and which way was west. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Thu, 30 Dec 2021 - 20:50
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 911 Joined: 14 Oct 2003 From: Dubai Member No.: 425 |
I have often wondered how they enforce 20 limits.
It's partly relevant to the OP's situation, but after looking at google (and yes I know that can't be relied upon) it would seem there are a few spurious repeaters along that road, but I can't seem to determine where the speed limit originates. There are also 20 zones in the area, and initially I wondered if this was a limit or a zone, but as there are repeaters, then it's likely a limit. My questions are: 1) How far apart do the repeaters need to be? 2) As the original default of a 30mph limit is determined by how far the street lamps are apart, how did they overcome this for 20 limits? I know this has probably been thrashed to death before, and it doesn't matter for the OP's situation, but along with the TRO it's something worth knowing. -------------------- Tamara-D
Bad girl - and proud of it! -------------------- Points: 0 Fought: 5 Won: 4 (2 after extra time) Lost: 1 (away game) Games abandoned: 0 Home games in progress: 0 Away games in Progress: 0 -------------------- |
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Thu, 30 Dec 2021 - 20:57
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#11
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Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,214 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
The proper place for asking questions to fill in the gaps in your own knowledge is the Flame Pit, rather than partially hijacking the OP's thread. However,
To change a speed limit from the class/default speed limit requires a Traffic Regulation Order (TRO).IIRC under s. 82 RTRA for roads which would otherwise be restricted and s. 84 for other roads. -------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
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Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 15:46
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Member No.: 113,416 |
Good afternoon everybody,
Thank you for your help so far. I have attached the TRO as the council have now replied to me. To be honest, I can't make head or tail of it as this is very different to what I'm used to doing for a living. Could anybody on here read through it please? Thanks again.
Attached File(s)
1._LBC__Speed_Limits___Consolidation__Order_2019_V5.pdf ( 110.7K )
Number of downloads: 72
Pampisford_Rd_20mph_speed_limit_map_tile.pdf ( 469.92K ) Number of downloads: 57 |
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Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 15:52
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
OK, so that map shows the nes 20mph speed limits applied by the 2019 consolidation order. A consolidation order does what it says on the tin and consolidates a number of orders into one new one.
We have to assume that if Pampisford road was subject to a previous order it's in that list of those revoked, but if it was a 30mph restricted road then no order would have been needed for that, so no revocation would be needed. So from what you have, the TRO appears to be valid. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 16:06
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,300 Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Member No.: 47,602 |
OK, so that map shows the nes 20mph speed limits applied by the 2019 consolidation order. A consolidation order does what it says on the tin and consolidates a number of orders into one new one. We have to assume that if Pampisford road was subject to a previous order it's in that list of those revoked, but if it was a 30mph restricted road then no order would have been needed for that, so no revocation would be needed. So from what you have, the TRO appears to be valid. I can confirm that Pampisford Road was a 30 mph restricted road throughout its length in about 1990, as explained by the nice occifer who booked me for doing 50 at 5.30 a.m. |
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Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 16:14
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
Others may chime in but IMO that TRO is stretching the requirements for a TRO, which requires a description of the roads to be restricted - which is why you normally see "High Street from a point 78 metres west of Church Lane" or similar.
I'm not sure if saying "look at a map" qualifies as a description under LATO 1996 regs. Others will chime in though. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/24...schedule/1/made |
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Tue, 4 Jan 2022 - 17:15
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Others may chime in but IMO that TRO is stretching the requirements for a TRO, which requires a description of the roads to be restricted - which is why you normally see "High Street from a point 78 metres west of Church Lane" or similar. I'm not sure if saying "look at a map" qualifies as a description under LATO 1996 regs. Others will chime in though. Councils have been using map-based orders for years, as long as the meaning of the order is clear and unambiguous I don't see an issue. To be honest a map-based order leaves less scope for ambiguity than one with long textual descriptions (which require you to get a map anyway to work out what's what). -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 5 Jan 2022 - 01:56
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
I don't see an issue. The potential legal issue is that it doesn't seem to meet the prescriptive requirements to introduce a TRO, unless a court found that a map was a sufficient to be a description of the length of road that the TRO relates so. If the statutory procedures are meant to be guidelines only then no doubt LAs would happily dispense with the need to advertise TROs, do consultations and hear appeals. On a more real world scenario, it is easy for speed limits to be updated by computer if there is a text description for sat navs, (eventually) autonomous vehicles etc. It's much more difficult to update from PDF maps. Either way it would be a difficult defence but a potential defence if someone was on nine points and prepared to throw the kitchen sink. |
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Wed, 5 Jan 2022 - 10:05
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I don't see an issue. The potential legal issue is that it doesn't seem to meet the prescriptive requirements to introduce a TRO, unless a court found that a map was a sufficient to be a description of the length of road that the TRO relates so. If the statutory procedures are meant to be guidelines only then no doubt LAs would happily dispense with the need to advertise TROs, do consultations and hear appeals. On a more real world scenario, it is easy for speed limits to be updated by computer if there is a text description for sat navs, (eventually) autonomous vehicles etc. It's much more difficult to update from PDF maps. Either way it would be a difficult defence but a potential defence if someone was on nine points and prepared to throw the kitchen sink. I suspect a court would have no difficulty in finding that a map is an adequate description, taking a purposive approach. The only scenario where it would make any sense to run this would be if the TRO imposed, let's say, a 20 limit on what was previously a 70 and the accused was facing a dangerous driving charge and was at risk of custody. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 5 Jan 2022 - 19:05
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,572 Joined: 28 Mar 2010 Member No.: 36,528 |
The useful advice from the barrister is that you do not have a leg to stand on, otherwise it is not, I'm afraid and the only result of sending all that bumf and your own suggestions would be to cause mild irritation to the the justice at being expected to wade through all that irrelevance. That would not affect sentencing but not benefit you either. You would be very lucky to get back the service history of your car from the court, which might disadvantage you when you come to sell it.
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Thu, 6 Jan 2022 - 19:02
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Member No.: 113,416 |
All,
Thank you very much for your help so far, it is greatly appreciated. So, just to be crystal clear, am I correct in saying that my best option now is to plead guilty and await the outcome? There are no other steps that I can take? |
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