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Britannia Parking operating on land its customer doesn't own
mjhlfc
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:32
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Hi everyone, I hope I've posted this in the right place. If I haven't I apologise. And I'm sorry for the forthcoming novel but I've never come across a situation like this before.

On Tuesday morning, without any warning, Britannia Parking installed an ANPR camera in our car park along with several signs dotted around stating our car park is now permit only. The ANPR camera is pointed at the only way in or out of the car park, effectively trapping our cars. Any attempt to leave would result in us being picked up by the camera and a PCN through the door. I had to pick up my son yesterday, so that camera would have snapped me leaving and then returning (where my car has remained since). I fully expect a bunch of PCNs over the coming days.

Straight away I rang the landlords, they told me they had no knowledge of this and haven't authorised Britannia Parking to manage the car park. They also confirmed they are the lawful landowners of the area and have the deeds to prove it.

I then rang Britannia Parking. They also said that enforcement has already begun. To that, I asked why there wasn't any notice given and he simply said they were under no obligation to do so. They also do not believe that the landlords own the car park, therefore, any PCN issued will be valid and appeals on that basis will be rejected. They then let slip their customer is Greene King who run the pub a few doors down.

It then spoke to Greene King, who tried to claim it was a Council matter. Eventually, I got through to the Area Manager who "authorized" Britannia Parking. He told me they were only supposed to manage the area directly outside the pub. He also claimed he had prior approval from the landlords. I checked this with them and they assured me they did not. Turns out Greene King lease the building (not the car park) from different landlord, who gave them permission.

I spoke Britannia again, this time they were not authorised to comment any further. They couldn't even tell me how would we go about getting a permit.

I, and my neighbours, are expecting a number of PCNs through our doors and we're not sure how to fight this, should they come.
  • The first issue is that their customer doesn't own the land they're operating on. Britannia says they do not recognise this and will reject any appeal on that basis. Can they do that out of hand?
  • The second issue is the position of the ANPR camera (I've attached photos of this). If it's not even focused on the area their customer has "authorized" them to manage, surely any resulting PCNs are invalid?
  • The third issue is the signage, it's placed everywhere but outside the pub. Does this also invalidate any PCNs
  • The final issue is the lack of notice. Surely they can't turn up, slap a sign on the wall and issue a PCN to every driver already parked there?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated smile.gif

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This post has been edited by mjhlfc: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 19:26
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post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:32
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ostell
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:51
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Get the owner of the land to supply you with a redacted copy of the proof he owns the land. Send it to Brittania.

Wait for Brittania PCNS to arrive the appeal as the keeper pointing out no authority and therefore their access to the DVLA for your personal details is a breach of the GDPR, for which you will require compensation at £250 a time for the distress caused,

If it gets to court the a counter claim for same breach
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 10:58
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WHen you say "your" car park, how is your use of it authorised?

In your AST? Lease? Something else?

Britannia will be unable to show a contract covering that site, WHEN you appeal the PCNs and then appeal to POPLA once Britannia reject. This will win.
You then sue them under the DPA2018 as they had no "reasonable cause" to access your personal data, and you claim £750 as they *knew*, because of your phone calls, tjhat they had no authority.

I got confused as to which landlord is in place here - is it the same landlord for all sites? Maybe give them different indexes so we know which is which if they are different.
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mjhlfc
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:38
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:51) *
Get the owner of the land to supply you with a redacted copy of the proof he owns the land. Send it to Brittania.

Wait for Brittania PCNS to arrive the appeal as the keeper pointing out no authority and therefore their access to the DVLA for your personal details is a breach of the GDPR, for which you will require compensation at £250 a time for the distress caused,

If it gets to court the a counter claim for same breach


Thanks ostell. I'll look into that. I'm in contact with the landlords so it shouldn't be a problem.
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mjhlfc
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:02
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:58) *
WHen you say "your" car park, how is your use of it authorised?

In your AST? Lease? Something else?


TBH I haven't checked our AST. Will look at it tonight to be sure. If not I can always ask the landlords?

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:58) *
I got confused as to which landlord is in place here - is it the same landlord for all sites? Maybe give them different indexes so we know which is which if they are different.


Sorry, I'll try and make this clearer. I rent from a private landlord who owns the leasehold on the house (He hasn't really got anything to do with this, I'm just keeping him updated as it is his house).

The parties in this disupte are:
  • M - What i referred to as our landlords. The freeholder of all of the houses, shops, and car park
  • P - The freeholder of the pub only (I don't know who this person/company is)
  • GK - Greene King, the brewery
  • BP - Britannia Parking

In a nutshell, P gave GK permission to hire BP to manage the car park. However the car park is owned by M. I'm getting a headache just typing this!

The dispute over ownership is being handled by M. In the meantime, the ANPR camera installed by BP is active and focused on the only way in or out of the car park. Therefore, we have no choice but get caught by it.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:16
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WEll it would be good to know YOU have authority to park before you spout off about others wink.gif

WEll you have a choice - cover number plate
BUt as pointed out
You almost WWANT them to break the law over this, as you can then sue them

M should be writing to GK *instructing* them to *instruct* their agent to cease their actions.
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thevaliant
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:27
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I might be tempted to write a letter to BP, perhaps copying neighbours in to let them know of the issues.

Keep it simple.

You are X, a tenant of M. You understand BP have installed an ANPR camera unlawfully to monitor land owned by M. (Can you get a copy of land registry confirming this, this would go a VERY long way) After discussions with M, there is no contract between M and BP to undertake such monitoring.

BP therefore have no authority to issue invoices for parking on land they neither own, nor have permission to operate from with the landholder.
Any attempt to extort payment from you will be defended robustly in court if necessary, and BP's unreasonable (and possibly illegal) behaviour will be drawn to the attention of the court and your expenses in defending these frivilous actions will be sought.

There really isn't more to it than this.

It's the same as saying I've turned up to your house, and said to you "Each time you watch telly, you owe me £100."
That's BP's position. Little more than that.

You do need to be absolutely sure that M hasn't granted BP permission however, though even if they had, that wouldn't be fatal to the above.
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mjhlfc
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:20
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:16) *
M should be writing to GK *instructing* them to *instruct* their agent to cease their actions.

Yes, M is already onto GK, P and BP. This dispute could take some time, so my immediate concern is that I could be racking up charges as long as that camera is there. My neighbours also have the same concerns, so it will be good to share this advice with them too.

QUOTE (thevaliant @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:27) *
Can you get a copy of land registry confirming this, this would go a VERY long way

That's a very good idea. Thank you.

QUOTE (thevaliant @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:27) *
You do need to be absolutely sure that M hasn't granted BP permission however, though even if they had, that wouldn't be fatal to the above.

M has assured they have nothing to do with this. They believe it's a case of P overstepping their boundaries.

Thank you to everyone for this great advice. It has really helped so far.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:29
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You have no concerns. There are no "charges", jsut an invoice or two that IF theyre stupid enough to pursue *results in you suing them for 4 figure sums*

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:30
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The Rookie
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:30
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QUOTE (mjhlfc @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 15:20) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:16) *
M should be writing to GK *instructing* them to *instruct* their agent to cease their actions.

Yes, M is already onto GK, P and BP. This dispute could take some time, so my immediate concern is that I could be racking up charges as long as that camera is there.

How is it a concern? Do you think they would want to take this to court?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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mjhlfc
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 19:25
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Hi everyone,

An update on what's going on.

I took thevaliant's advice and got copies of the deeds from the land registry. It turns out P does own part of the car park. However, the ANPR camera and most of BP's signage is within M's boundaries.

I received an email from GK, claiming they have permission from P carry out enforcement and request their area is kept clear at all times. GK also sent what they claimed to be the land registry map as proof. This differed from the map I have from the land registry. Their map went as far as claiming part of the adjacent pay and display car park (owned by the council), so I know their version is utter bull.

GK also passed me the contact details of P as all future correspondance would be through him. After speaking to P, I discovered GK acted without his permission. In fact, the first P heard of it was from the email to me from GK which he was bcc'd on. P assured me he will be writing to GK to instruct BP to cease enforcement.

Now we know neither landowner has authorised this, GK and BP don't have a leg to stand on. All that remains is to see if BP is stupid enough to pursue.

Hopefully, GK will now back down and call BP off and this will come to nothing. If not, it's really good to know I have a solid case to fight this.

Thank you all so much for your advice.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 07:46
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Let all your neighbours know that, IF fBrit send a Notice to Keeper out, that they are to NOT PAY IT.

Suing them is the way forward, for acting without reasonable cause to access their data.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 16 Aug 2019 - 07:55
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Get your local MP involved, this would be one of the few times they are any use!


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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mjhlfc
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 16:13
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Hi Everyone,

Good news. BP and GK have backed down! The ANPR camera and the signs have all been removed and BP has assured everyone that they won't be issuing any PCNs. icon_thumleft.gif

Thank you very much to everyone on here for the awesome advice.
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Jlc
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 16:18
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...and refunding all those who paid?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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mjhlfc
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 16:20
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 17:18) *
...and refunding all those who paid?


AFAIK nobody has paid
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The Rookie
post Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 05:15
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Well done in sticking it to them!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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