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Motorcycle Bay Suspended (Poorly) Without my Knowledge
SuspendedDisbeli...
post Fri, 4 May 2018 - 20:12
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I've just come back home to find £260 worth of parking fines on my bike.

I leave my motorcycle in a bay down the street, because it's the closest free space to park. A few other bikers do the same. I've had no issues in the past, and my bike has not moved from this bay since the 21st of April. This week someone decided to suspend the parking bay from the 1st to the 4th of May for "access for election." The first time I knew about this is when I got home from work today (4th May) and found a couple of PCNs dated 1st and 3rd of May attached to one of the mirrors. The bag was open and another one (or two?) might have fallen out in the meantime, but here are the ones I found:

1st May: https://i.imgur.com/nGz89tf.jpg
3rd May: https://i.imgur.com/CmaE9oj.jpg
The back: https://i.imgur.com/WVw1dP8.jpg

Here is the kicker. Coming home on the 2nd of May, I took this picture to show my sister where my bike was parked:

https://i.imgur.com/ZHBWD0N.jpg

I sent it to her and thought nothing of it, but looking back at it today, I see that the sign was not properly attached and essentially falling off the lamp post. If the sign was properly attached, I would have seen it and moved my bike.

Here is the sign as found today: https://i.imgur.com/1FhAcgI.jpg

From reading this forum, I think there are two things I can appeal on:

1) My bike was already parked in the bay when the suspension started and I did not move it during the entire time of the suspension, so there was only one alleged contravention and there should have been one PCN issued only.
2) The sign was clearly improperly installed. Though it had been conveniently fixed today, I don't see how a sign facing away from the road and barely hanging on to a lamp post can be considered adequate.

I'm not sure of the technical language I should use in my appeal, so I would really appreciate if I could please get some advice about what to write. It doesn't seem right at all they can suspend the bay you're parked in without you knowing, and make you pay multiple hundreds of pounds on your return. I'm fully intending to fight this until it gets dismissed.

If anyone needs any more information, let me know.

Thanks and May the 4th be with you,
SuspendedDisbelief


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post Fri, 4 May 2018 - 20:12
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cp8759
post Fri, 4 May 2018 - 23:20
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Are you saying you parked your bike on the 21st and hadn't checked on it since?


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peterguk
post Fri, 4 May 2018 - 23:24
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QUOTE (SuspendedDisbelief @ Fri, 4 May 2018 - 21:12) *
The sign was clearly improperly installed.


How do you know that?


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SuspendedDisbeli...
post Sat, 5 May 2018 - 10:29
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After an attempted theft, I briefly check that the bike is still there most days while heading to the station. I never saw this sign, I cannot tell how long the sign was in this state for.

I’d argue that a properly installed sign should not have got in this state, short of someone deliberately attacking it. Even if it was properly installed, it was not effective for at least one point during the suspension and who knows how long before and after my picture was taken.
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cp8759
post Sat, 5 May 2018 - 12:54
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Go to https://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/lgnl/transp...king_fines.aspx and get the council photos, we need to know what evidence the council has. Also email them and ask when they installed the sign.


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SuspendedDisbeli...
post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 19:11
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I've got the pictures from the council. There are some pictures from the 1st of May of the bike already parked in the bay, and from the 3rd of May of the bike in the same position.

Here is the picture of the sign on the 1st of May: https://i.imgur.com/f3H9KKS.jpg It is a close up because it is in the same position as I saw it on the 2nd of May, hanging off the lamp post.

On the 3rd of May it seems the sign has been fixed: https://i.imgur.com/qouzVAa.jpg

I have emailed the council asking for the date the sign was put up.

Thanks for your help so far.
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cp8759
post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:53
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We'll be able to give you advice on your chance if you show us all the council photos. Otherwise we're just guessing.


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SuspendedDisbeli...
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 20:23
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From the 1st:

https://i.imgur.com/5EaPli4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/KkKZvMm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VljZ2jn.jpg

From the 3rd:

https://i.imgur.com/f1nFgj8.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/J6OjoFl.jpg
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 21:31
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Well there's two possible explanations:

1) You haven't actually posted all the council photos, or
2) The council has no evidence that there was a suspension sing there at all, so you're virtually guaranteed to win on appeal.

So which is it?


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SuspendedDisbeli...
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 08:06
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In my first set of pictures from the council there are pictures of the sign, but none with both the sign and the bike in the same shot (apart from the reflection in the window on one of them).

These are all the images I got from the council.
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cp8759
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 17:46
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QUOTE (SuspendedDisbelief @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 09:06) *
These are all the images I got from the council.

Well they're not as in the opening post you said "I took this picture to show my sister". Please post the photos of the sign taken by the council.


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SuspendedDisbeli...
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 21:06
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QUOTE (SuspendedDisbelief @ Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:11) *
I've got the pictures from the council. There are some pictures from the 1st of May of the bike already parked in the bay, and from the 3rd of May of the bike in the same position.

Here is the picture of the sign on the 1st of May: https://i.imgur.com/f3H9KKS.jpg It is a close up because it is in the same position as I saw it on the 2nd of May, hanging off the lamp post.

On the 3rd of May it seems the sign has been fixed: https://i.imgur.com/qouzVAa.jpg

I have emailed the council asking for the date the sign was put up.

Thanks for your help so far.


The quoted post has the photos of the sign by the council.

I also got a reply to my email: the sign was put up on the 26th April at 10:03.
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cp8759
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 11:45
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Then IMO the signs would be found to be substantially compliant, you could take a gamble at adjudication but the discount would be gone.


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hcandersen
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 12:40
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OP, your account is contradictory:

'The first time I knew about this [the suspension] is when I got home from work today (4th May)'

'Here is the picture of the sign on the 1st of May: https://i.imgur.com/f3H9KKS.jpg It is a close up because it is in the same position as I saw it on the 2nd of May, hanging off the lamp post.'

??

PCNs dated 1and 3 May. If you saw the sign on 2nd, why didn't you move the bike?
?????
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Mr Mustard
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 13:05
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I note the apparent lack of a bay sign for this bay (not in the council's photos) restricting it to motorcycles and setting any applicable times. I wonder if this is an informal bay? I have searched the London Gazette for a Traffic Management Order (TMO) without any joy. If a bay is suspended it is normal to put the suspension sign on the same post as the bay sign so that it does not get missed. The way it is mounted makes me think there isn't one and that there isn't a TMO. Without a TMO there isn't a bay so it can't be suspended except by an advertised temporary restriction. (OP is there a sign for the bay?)

If the bay applies 24 hours a day, which I expect it does but can't be sure, then there is only one continuous contravention so all PCN after the first should be challenged on those grounds. A phone call to Tower Hamlets may get a list of PCN numbers from them so we know what we are dealing with. I hope the name and address registered for the bike is up to date at DVLA. (OP to confirm).

Finally, if there is a TMO, will it contain the right to suspend the bay for an election? If not, then the act of suspending is beyond the powers of the council.

I'm a biker OP & I can help you beat some or possibly all of these PCNs.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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SuspendedDisbeli...
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 19:33
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 13:40) *
OP, your account is contradictory:

'The first time I knew about this [the suspension] is when I got home from work today (4th May)'

'Here is the picture of the sign on the 1st of May: https://i.imgur.com/f3H9KKS.jpg It is a close up because it is in the same position as I saw it on the 2nd of May, hanging off the lamp post.'

??

PCNs dated 1and 3 May. If you saw the sign on 2nd, why didn't you move the bike?
?????


Sorry, I should have said "it is in the same position as in my picture on the 2nd of May." I didn't see the sign at the time.

QUOTE (Mr Mustard @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 14:05) *
I note the apparent lack of a bay sign for this bay (not in the council's photos) restricting it to motorcycles and setting any applicable times. I wonder if this is an informal bay? I have searched the London Gazette for a Traffic Management Order (TMO) without any joy. If a bay is suspended it is normal to put the suspension sign on the same post as the bay sign so that it does not get missed. The way it is mounted makes me think there isn't one and that there isn't a TMO. Without a TMO there isn't a bay so it can't be suspended except by an advertised temporary restriction. (OP is there a sign for the bay?)

If the bay applies 24 hours a day, which I expect it does but can't be sure, then there is only one continuous contravention so all PCN after the first should be challenged on those grounds. A phone call to Tower Hamlets may get a list of PCN numbers from them so we know what we are dealing with. I hope the name and address registered for the bike is up to date at DVLA. (OP to confirm).

Finally, if there is a TMO, will it contain the right to suspend the bay for an election? If not, then the act of suspending is beyond the powers of the council.

I'm a biker OP & I can help you beat some or possibly all of these PCNs.


Awesome. I've checked and there is no permanent sign for the bay. I'm only living here temporarily so the bike is registered elsewhere.

Thanks for your help. If we can beat this then the North London Hospice is getting the money!

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Mr Mustard
post Fri, 11 May 2018 - 13:47
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Hello OP - if you could send me unredacted copies of the PCNs to mrmustard@zoho.com then we can get cracking on your challenges over the weekend.

Best regards

Mr M


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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SuspendedDisbeli...
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 09:46
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Hi Mr Mustard,

I sent you the unredacted PCNs. The 14-day challenge period expires tomorrow, so shall I make an informal representation today?

Thanks
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Mr Mustard
post Sun, 13 May 2018 - 09:50
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I will write them for you this evening.


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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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Mr Mustard
post Mon, 14 May 2018 - 12:52
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Here are the informal challenges as made, just for info. The same traffic warden 2 days apart - OP is finding out if there are any more PCNs.

In the absence of a bay sign this appears to be an informal or advisory bay. If that is the case then no Traffic Management Order exists and the bay cannot be suspended by the usual method of displaying a yellow triangular sign. That being the case I was not parked in contravention.

If it is a formal bay then it has not been adequately signed in accordance with the Local Authorities Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England & Wales) Regulations 1996 and any suspension is equally ineffective as motorists are not on notice of a bay which could be suspended.

In any event the suspension sign was not erected with sufficient notice nor is it adequately nor clearly mounted such that it would come to the attention of motorists using the road.

The motorcycle was not moved between the issue of the two PCNs and therefore only one contravention can be said to have occurred and all PCNs after the first one should be cancelled for that reason.

I also question whether an election is a reason stated within any TMO for which parking can be suspended. The council are requested to provide me with the TMO if they reject this challenge.

If there are any other PCNs other than TT******47 & TT******27 the council are asked to consider this as also a challenge against them.



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All advice given by me on PePiPoo is on a pro bono basis (i.e. free). PePiPoo relies on Donations so do donate if you can. Sometimes I will, in addition, personally offer to represent you at London Tribunals (i.e. within greater London only) & if you wish me to I will ask you to make a voluntary donation, if the Appeal is won, directly to the North London Hospice.
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