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Old NIP in NYP Area B6451 Confirmed Wrong Location
ian505050
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 14:58
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I have had several NIPs and Smart Motorway fines cancelled over the past few years due to irritating miss-identification of my vehicle and have had to spend many hours proving this. I am now doubting the validity of the only NIP that i have ever accepted originally 6 months ago and subsequently attended a speed awareness course.

Basically the attached NIP States i was on one road and the photos of the offence the police provided show the motorbike on a different section of the road.

I have attached the NIP stating the offence occurred on the B6451 North of A59 Junction.

I have attached Camera Images the police provided which show my motorcycle on the B6451 South of A59 Junction. (I know this to be correct as i can remember approaching the van) Also if you know the roads in the area its just possible to make out that the photos don't match the location stated in the NIP

North and South of a junction in the case are clearly something that cant be disputed by the policesurely, its something very simple and if this is incorrect regarding my NIP what other simple things could the officer have got wrong?

I assume its too late now i have paid and attended the speed awareness course to do anything about.

Any advice would be great.











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post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 14:58
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mdann52
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:10
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As long as you weren't disadvantaged by the error, this does not change the situation. As you admitted you were the driver in any case, I don't see anything you can do here.
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peterguk
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:32
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:58) *
I assume its too late now i have paid and attended the speed awareness course to do anything about.

Any advice would be great.


You accepted the allegation. You chose to avoid court. Time to move on.


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ian505050
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 16:14
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I thought this was going to be the case. Gutted I did not notice the error originally.

I have supposedly commited 6 various motoring offences this year and 5 of them I literraly had nothing to do with but...... I was effectively guilty until I could prove I was innocent.

I went 9 years without any offences but since the introduction of so much cctv and technology it seems that looking the wrong way at someone can be punished by a fine.

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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 16:21
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:14) *
I went 9 years without any offences but since the introduction of so much cctv and technology it seems that looking the wrong way at someone can be punished by a fine.

Driving like you're taking your test, and you'll never have a problem.


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666
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 16:52
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:14) *
I went 9 years without any offences but since the introduction of so much cctv and technology it seems that looking the wrong way at someone can be punished by a fine.


I think you mean "9 years without any detected offences".
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BrianB
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:06
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Substitute 'of' with 'at', and it is correct, a minimal mistake.
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ian505050
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 14:32
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QUOTE (666 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:52) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:14) *
I went 9 years without any offences but since the introduction of so much cctv and technology it seems that looking the wrong way at someone can be punished by a fine.


I think you mean "9 years without any detected offences".


Correct, i assume the average driver commits hundreds of undetected offences a year.

I wonder when the amount of points allowed on your licence will increase to 120 instead of 12.

Its just i am sure there are 10 times as any many speed cameras and opportunities to be fined compared to when i started driving so surly we should be given more points to use up.

It seems to be making it near impossible to survive as a driver on the road. The laws of probability will soon catch up to everyone and we may get to the point where everyone is banned.

Then i will have no cars to moan at riding my horse to work.
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666
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:02
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:32) *
QUOTE (666 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:52) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 17:14) *
I went 9 years without any offences but since the introduction of so much cctv and technology it seems that looking the wrong way at someone can be punished by a fine.


I think you mean "9 years without any detected offences".


Correct, i assume the average driver commits hundreds of undetected offences a year.

I wonder when the amount of points allowed on your licence will increase to 120 instead of 12.

Its just i am sure there are 10 times as any many speed cameras and opportunities to be fined compared to when i started driving so surly we should be given more points to use up.

It seems to be making it near impossible to survive as a driver on the road. The laws of probability will soon catch up to everyone and we may get to the point where everyone is banned.

Then i will have no cars to moan at riding my horse to work.


By the same logic, there is much more technology available to detect and convict murderers than than there was a few decades ago. Do you think we should perhaps be able to get away with our first or second murder?
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localdriver
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:21
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:58) *
Basically the attached NIP States i was on one road and the photos of the offence the police provided show the motorbike on a different section of the road.


Were you travelling North to South or South to North? The speed was recorded at 327 metres, if you were travelling North to South, the speeding could have been recorded North of A59, the confirmation photograph South of A59.

This post has been edited by localdriver: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:21
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ian505050
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 15:40
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QUOTE (localdriver @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:21) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:58) *
Basically the attached NIP States i was on one road and the photos of the offence the police provided show the motorbike on a different section of the road.


Were you travelling North to South or South to North? The speed was recorded at 327 metres, if you were travelling North to South, the speeding could have been recorded North of A59, the confirmation photograph South of A59.


I was travelling South to North (from Otley). The photo shows me riding South to North.

My Nip states in writing I was North of the B6451/A59 Junction.

But i know the camera van was south of the B6451/A59 Junction.

The photo shows i was 327m down the road also south of the B6451/A59 Junction.

Nothing to my knowledge occurred North of the B6451/A59 Junction.

I was the only driver to get a speeding ticket from that van at that location on that day. I think it was 3 minutes before he decided to call it quits for the day at that specific location looking at the excel sheet data North Yorkshire police publish showing number of offences / times /locations /dates.

It seems he did not know his north from his south or he simply misunderstood where his van was parked.

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ian505050
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 13:22
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After further discussions with Police via email over the past few months regarding the above NIP.

I recently received the following response:-


We recognized there was an error after reviewing your correspondence and cancelled both yours and other offences from that session. Had the location been stated correctly then the offence would stand and would require compliance from you.

Appropriate feedback has been provided to the relevant members of staff regarding to the two unfortunate circumstances you have found yourself in, and as both matters have been dealt with, we consider them closed.



Unfortunately the police don't seem to realize that i have actually already attended the speed awareness course for this specific NIP and booked a day off work as the alleged offence was several months ago.

When i received the NIP back in February I did not subsequently receive another letter or email from the police saying the NIP had been cancelled.

I am now in the position that I am out of pocket by a days wage and ÂŁ80.00 for the speed awareness course that the Police have just advised that in fact i did not actually need to attend.


Where do I stand with regards to claiming back all associated costs from the Police as i have it in writing they issued the NIP in Error and they allowed me to attend the speed awareness course for an offence that did not happen while disputing it all along.....

This is the second time this year that i have had a NIP regarding speeding in this approximate location both now confirmed by the police to be incorrect in writing. (Fortunately the other one was resolved outside court before points were applied to my licence)


Any advice is appreciated







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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 13:40
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I don't beli3ve you have any standing at all to reclaim monies, but I could be wrong
The reason being that the offer of a course isn't in anyway a requirement on you but it's an exchange for agreement not to prosecute.
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peterguk
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 13:42
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QUOTE (ian505050 @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 13:22) *
Where do I stand with regards to claiming back all associated costs from the Police as i have it in writing they issued the NIP in Error and they allowed me to attend the speed awareness course for an offence that did not happen while disputing it all along....

So you chose to attend a SAC instead of taking the matter to court?
Time to move on.


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Jlc
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 14:07
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A letter of complaint asking for costs to be reimbursed would be the point to start. (I suspect the course T+C's have watertight clauses)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 14:46
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Indeed, a letter asking for your money back costs little for a potentially decent return, I don’t think you have a strong case but no harm in asking. If nothing else that forces cut.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 14:46


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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 22:03
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Submit a charge back to your card provider. These inevitably say that you can initiate a chargeback if a sale was made under deceptive or false pretences.

Having been on the receiving end of chargebacks as a retailer they are almost impossible to defend as inevitably the card company is on the customers side.
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NewJudge
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 08:57
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Another aspect is that the OP will not be eligible for a course now until three years from the date of the "offence". He might like to try to get that corrected as well.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 08:58
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Logician
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:00
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 08:57) *
Another aspect is that the OP will not be eligible for a course now until three years from the date of the "offence". He might like to try to get that corrected as well.


Yes, just my thought!



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ian505050
post Thu, 15 Nov 2018 - 22:17
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 13:42) *
QUOTE (ian505050 @ Wed, 7 Nov 2018 - 13:22) *
Where do I stand with regards to claiming back all associated costs from the Police as i have it in writing they issued the NIP in Error and they allowed me to attend the speed awareness course for an offence that did not happen while disputing it all along....

So you chose to attend a SAC instead of taking the matter to court?
Time to move on.


No, I actually provided a cover letter when returning my NIP stating that I am disputing but currently don't have evidence to fight the case in court.I clearly stated in the cover letter that It was completed under duress due to the threat of court.

The police subsequently provided the evidence after my freedom of information request confiming i was correct.

Unfortunately as this took so long I had already booked and attended the speed awareness course.

I am currently awaiting a response from the police but would expect it to be about a month before they get back to me as my findings and questions put them in a difficult situation.

Or..... they may just decide as it a difficult question/request they will just ignore it.

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