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32JD Failing to proceed in the direction shown by the arrow on a blue sign
Royboy71
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 13:41
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Hello, the council have rejected a formal representation.

My parent not familiar with this area, has found ones self in the lane turning right. The lorry to the left was not being helpful and the rubbish clearance vehicle behind was adding pressure.

The council have said drivers must be vigilant at all times. In an ideal world yes.

Any advice will be much appreciated.
Many thanks.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8509/ghT9iz.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6041/AGLSMa.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7992/ODAHQr.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8927/jrwceP.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7365/sgEsPT.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5669/FPLgvD.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6669/7Mxl2j.jpg

This post has been edited by Royboy71: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 16:05
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post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 13:41
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stamfordman
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 13:52
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Reinstate all dates.

Post the representation and the rejection.

Post the video (if you can't you can PM me the details).
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Royboy71
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:16
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The video is being uploaded by the council. They have told me to check back later. They are currently in the process of preparing my secure evidence
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Royboy71
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 15:56
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Representation:

I was in unfamiliar surroundings on this day, travelling to Ealing Hospital, I have not driven down this road before and it was new to me. I did not realise or see a sign that said turn right only and thought that you could enter both lanes to go straight on at the lights. If I was aware or had seen the sign I would of been in the correct lane.


This is from an email. I've typed it. Do I need to upload the original email?

Thanks
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cp8759
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 16:36
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Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman if you can't get hold of it by tomorrow.


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Royboy71
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 17:56
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 17:36) *
Send the PCN details to me or stamfordman if you can't get hold of it by tomorrow.

Hi, thanks for looking.
I’ve uploaded the Pcn on my first post.
What details do I send?
Thank you.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 18:13
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You can PM me the VRM and PCN number and I'll check for the video.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 20:03
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I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 20:50
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03) *
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?



Are there any photos GSV is 10 months old but shows a no right turn arrow. and if this is still the case it is a wrong contravention

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5271967,-...3312!8i6656


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Royboy71
post Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 14:56
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Hi, I’m not sure about the no right turn. I will go and have a look. Thanks for that. That is a helpful observation.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03) *
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?

I will check the notice of rejection. Thanks.


QUOTE (Royboy71 @ Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 15:41) *
Hi, I’m not sure about the no right turn. I will go and have a look. Thanks for that. That is a helpful observation.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03) *
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?

I will check the notice of rejection. Thanks.


15 May.
28 days after the date of notice of rejection which was 17April.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:50) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 29 Apr 2020 - 21:03) *
I've checked again and video is not available yet - it may be because of lockdown. What is deadline to make reps?



Are there any photos GSV is 10 months old but shows a no right turn arrow. and if this is still the case it is a wrong contravention

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5271967,-...3312!8i6656


Looking at the PCN pic and street view. It looks like the layout has been changed since. An extra little lane looks to be squeezed in. I’ll drive by later.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 15:03
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you actually have until the 18th of may


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cp8759
post Fri, 1 May 2020 - 12:16
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 30 Apr 2020 - 16:03) *
you actually have until the 18th of may

+1, the 28 days are from the date of service not the date of the notice.


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Royboy71
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 11:04
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Oh, ok thanks. I haven’t been to the location yet.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 11:31
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Here's video - I have extracted 30 secs for best quality for display here.

I'm not sure what driver has done wrong here - seems they were in a right turn lane but drove across the junction which you are allowed to do.

To enforce it would mean a segregated lane with its own right turn phase - I would have thought.

The second video below does show that there is a right turn phase.





This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 2 May 2020 - 13:08
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 14:27
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Unless changing lanes is a contravention I agree


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Longtime Lurker
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 16:48
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The video does show a contravention, but it's by the green truck overtaking on the left of a car that's indicating left!

From what I can see this looks totally winnable, unless there's a blue turn right arrow that isn't on street view, which seems highly unlikely.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 17:03
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QUOTE (Longtime Lurker @ Sat, 2 May 2020 - 17:48) *
From what I can see this looks totally winnable, unless there's a blue turn right arrow that isn't on street view, which seems highly unlikely.


I think we can assume there is a blue right turn arrow that acts in concert with the right turn light. You can see in the bottom segment that there are two such arrows in the opposite direction for that phase of the lights.

The key is whether having been in the right lane the manoeuvre to abort or not intend to take a right turn and move straight across the junction is a contravention on the other green light. I say no because there is only one carriageway and road markings can't dictate a contravention.

Here's the entire video:

https://youtu.be/iLQ-hrKAJwM

Logically I suppose you contravene the right turn arrow by not obeying it when the right turn light is green. Junctions like this tend to have a green arrow light but they've gone for a big stick here. They are also sometimes phased so that the straight and right turn are phased at the same time.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 2 May 2020 - 17:09
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 18:13
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Two things that need looking at for me. Can sign 609 apply to only part of the carriageway? and if yes, did the OP move to the left in time to no contravene the sign.


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stamfordman
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 18:32
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A quick look shows:

Unlike at uncontrolled junctions it is not appropriate to use a sign to diagram 609 (“turn left/right ahead”) at the junction itself. If appropriate, a sign to diagram 609 may be erected on the approach to the junction.

Chapter 6 for traffic control is the one to look at for this. But these signs are used and there is an example like this in Ch 6:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5816661,-0....6384!8i8192

I doubt the manual will help with the carriageway issue.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 2 May 2020 - 19:15
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Royboy71
post Mon, 4 May 2020 - 21:26
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Thank you to you all for your input. The council have made what used to be a no right turn into a must right turn.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4381/2Al3so.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7743/9xhULQ.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4594/q8fnBC.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4823/yZyAmo.jpg

This post has been edited by Royboy71: Mon, 4 May 2020 - 21:51
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