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Allleged Bus Lane Contravention -Oxford RD (Nelson Street to Hathersage), Allleged Bus Lane Contravention -Oxford RD (Nelson Street to Hathersag
CYRIL
post Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 13:21
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Dear ALL,
I am sending this letter to Manchester City Council, as i got Bus lane Penalty Charge Notice and i never realised i was on the bus lane, if i knew i would not go on the bus lane road.

Usually you have bus lane road marking, but i did not see this i never realised. after 7-8 years i came to Manchester, as i dont do much driving and i am not familiar with Manchester Road and i got lost so many time looking for the Hospital and asking Manchester people where the Hospital is.

I had no intention to drive on the bus lane and it was Genuine mistake if i did, as i did not realised until today i receive the letter.

This is the below letter i am intending to send to Manchester City Council.

What do you think or do i need to change the letter type.

I HAVE 14 days to pay £30.00 or it will be £60.00 after 14 days to 28th Day or £90.00 after 28 days

Youe advice and help is much appreciated.

Saturday 02nd December 2017

Manchester City Council
PO BOX 52
Town Hall
Manchester
M60 2LA


Appeals and Payment Department.


PCN Penalty Charge Notice Number: MC79
Vehicle registration number:

Dear Sir or Madam,
Thank you for your letter of the PCN Dated 01/12/17

You have issued me with a Parking Charge Notice ticket on Sunday 05th November 2017 at 14:41pm, but I believe it was unlawfully issued.

I went to Manchester first time and kind of got lost, Confusion diversion and road works as well going on while I was in Manchester, but I cannot remember where and I did not realize I was on the Bus lane until I receive the letter today by post, as usually you have the Bus lane marked on the road that how I recognize. I looked at the picture it is just a normal road with 20Mph marking, when I checked the Google maps and picture there is no Bus lane marked. The warning sign on the Google map is not updated, as it is showing Sept 2016 last updated. You can see from the picture I was not causing any issue to the Bus lane or Blocking anyone, I did not realized I was on the bus lane, if they are saying I am on bus lane.

I never knew on Sunday the Bus lane contravention was active, as usually it is peak times only. I cannot remember seeing the sign at all; as if I did I would not break the rule, as my concentration was on the road and finding the place, as full focus on the road and traffic.

If i knew I was in the Bus lane, I would of exited immediate, as I am law abiding person and I never had parking ticket, speeding ticket .

I just don’t how I missed the sign, as it may have not been visible at the time to me, as I don’t know what was going through my mind or something may have come across the sign, which may have blocked it at the time. It may be insufficient signage, where they may need to have every 10Metres to catch the driver attention.



There are mitigating circumstances to explain why the vehicle was on the road at time where it was and the Parking charge Notice be waived for this reason.


Yours faithfully,



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This post has been edited by CYRIL: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 - 22:26
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post Sat, 2 Dec 2017 - 13:21
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CYRIL
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 12:37
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Just an update from TPT requesting freedom of information.

Stuart Wilson
12:07 PM (26 minutes ago)
to me
Dear



Thank you for your request for information, which was received by Traffic Penalty Tribunal on 13 February 2018.



Please note that The Bus Lane Adjudicators (known as the Traffic Penalty Tribunal) appointed under the powers in the Traffic Management Act 2004 are not within the definition of a "public authority" in schedule 1 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Consequently, the duties created by that Act do not apply to the Bus Lane Adjudicators.



It may take up to 20 working days for Traffic Penalty Tribunal to consider your request and to provide a formal response.



If you have any queries, please contact me on the number above.



Yours sincerely



Stuart Wilson



Dear Stuart,

Ref to our phone conversation, please can you send me the information under the freedom of the act for the Manchester Oxford RD (Nelson Street to Hathersage, as i recently got a PCN on the bus lane and i would like to see the cases from 2016 to today date with the appeal and decision.



I would be grateful if you can supply the information.



Kind Regards
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archiepea
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:02
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Wondered have you got a date for your hearing yet. Cyril?
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CYRIL
post Fri, 16 Feb 2018 - 11:52
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QUOTE (archiepea @ Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 15:02) *
Wondered have you got a date for your hearing yet. Cyril?


Hi archiepea,
Not got a date yet, but i have been giving them lot of messages of the pcn waived and so on, i have called them 3 times already discussing about the PCN and freedom of information.

any information i get i will upload it here.
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CYRIL
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 11:47
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I have got a date on Monday 05th March 2018 at 09:30am wit the TPT adjudicator.

see below links for the previous Adjudicator descion , whihc i requested from TPT under the freedom of information.

Stuart Wilson
Attachments11:16 AM (13 minutes ago)
to me
Dear





Thank you for your enquiry.



Please note that The Bus Lane Adjudicators (known as the Traffic Penalty Tribunal) appointed under the powers in the Traffic Management Act 2004 are not within the definition of a "public authority" in schedule 1 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. Consequently, the duties created by that Act do not apply to the Bus Lane Adjudicators.



Please find attached five recent decisions relating to the location you have specified. We are unable to supply any further information relating to these five appeals as it is protected data.

https://imageshack.com/i/pmEOkR3Sj
https://imageshack.com/i/pnGffGErj
https://imageshack.com/i/pmfWKu9pj
https://imageshack.com/i/poNzNJhkj
https://imageshack.com/i/poHixRI0j
https://imageshack.com/i/pnYM0vrHj
https://imageshack.com/i/po2c937Dj
https://imageshack.com/i/pnsl6UAWj
https://imageshack.com/i/pnVdQo5ej
https://imageshack.com/i/pmCPjycdj
https://imageshack.com/i/poQhQdplj
https://imageshack.com/i/pm96wOHEj
https://imageshack.com/i/pnMEhc41j
https://imageshack.com/i/pmJQ2cJ7j
https://imageshack.com/i/poU0O7rOj
https://imageshack.com/i/poHHKqg4j
https://imageshack.com/i/pnjoAfDxj


Yours sincerely
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DancingDad
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:27
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Just had a quick squint at those... signs not adequate is a repeated theme.
All with TPT numbers though names have been redacted so can be referenced in support of any case and in claims for costs.
MCC have repeatedly been told that signs are not adequate and that the appellant has won due to this.
But ignored and still rejected on basis that signs were adequate (plus OOT issue)
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CYRIL
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:15
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:27) *
Just had a quick squint at those... signs not adequate is a repeated theme.
All with TPT numbers though names have been redacted so can be referenced in support of any case and in claims for costs.
MCC have repeatedly been told that signs are not adequate and that the appellant has won due to this.
But ignored and still rejected on basis that signs were adequate (plus OOT issue)



Agree, i will add the cost.
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CYRIL
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:43
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Date changed for the hearing, so i am just updating you guys.

A Telephone hearing has been arranged for your case with the adjudicator. The details of your hearing are as follows:

Telephone Hearing - 06/03/2018 09:30

Information about the hearing can be found by logging into your case:

[url="https://foam.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk

If the above text does not appear as a link, copy and paste it into your web browser to view it.

Kind regards,
Traffic Penalty Tribunal
0800 160 1999

This post has been edited by CYRIL: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 13:51
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:02
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hi CYRIL can we see the PCN history from their file please


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sjSimon
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 15:30
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Is there any way we can help the 150,000 tickets issued to retroactively be refunded their fine due to the inadequate signage?

I myself am awaiting to hear from the Tribunal to know if the council will pursue my fine. I will be let off given they posted late. However, I want to see justice done for all those people who paid the fine because it was easier than going through the rigmarole of appealing (only to be declined by default) and then having to go through a tribunal.

MEN article showing 150,000 tickets issued in the last 6 months:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...-fines-14326548
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 15:32
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QUOTE (sjSimon @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
Is there any way we can help the 150,000 tickets issued to retroactively be refunded their fine due to the inadequate signage?

I myself am awaiting to hear from the Tribunal to know if the council will pursue my fine. I will be let off given they posted late. However, I want to see justice done for all those people who paid the fine because it was easier than going through the rigmarole of appealing (only to be declined by default) and then having to go through a tribunal.

MEN article showing 150,000 tickets issued in the last 6 months:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...-fines-14326548


Maybe, am on it but don't want to say to much yet


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CYRIL
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 18:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:02) *
hi CYRIL can we see the PCN history from their file please


Hi Pastmybest,
Sorry for the late reply been really busy at work and DIY.

I will send this request to TPT and see if they can provide this.

QUOTE (sjSimon @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 15:30) *
Is there any way we can help the 150,000 tickets issued to retroactively be refunded their fine due to the inadequate signage?

I myself am awaiting to hear from the Tribunal to know if the council will pursue my fine. I will be let off given they posted late. However, I want to see justice done for all those people who paid the fine because it was easier than going through the rigmarole of appealing (only to be declined by default) and then having to go through a tribunal.

MEN article showing 150,000 tickets issued in the last 6 months:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...-fines-14326548


Hi Simon,
This shows it is Money trap for MCC and they don’t care and no thought has been put into these signs and layout. They need to put a bin bag on the sign or completely take it off and do a trial for 12month before making it live to see how it is working out, but NO they can not do it like this , otherwise they do not make any money. End of the day it good way of making money daylight robbery from MCC. Read the comments on the article nothing good to say about MCC.
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CYRIL
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 11:18
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:02) *
hi CYRIL can we see the PCN history from their file please


Just sent an email this morning, as soon i hear or get any documents, i will let you know. I have also sent an email to MCC for the request, just in case if TPT can not give under the freedom of information.

Hi Stuart,
Would you be able to provide the Ticket History or do i need to get in touch with Manchester City Council, as i know when you submit the appeal Manchester city council send you the PCN ticket history.
see Attached example of the Tikcet history submitted by MCC.

Kind Regards

This post has been edited by CYRIL: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 12:06
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Umtwebby
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 12:42
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QUOTE (CYRIL @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 11:18) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:02) *
hi CYRIL can we see the PCN history from their file please


Just sent an email this morning, as soon i hear or get any documents, i will let you know. I have also sent an email to MCC for the request, just in case if TPT can not give under the freedom of information.

Hi Stuart,
Would you be able to provide the Ticket History or do i need to get in touch with Manchester City Council, as i know when you submit the appeal Manchester city council send you the PCN ticket history.
see Attached example of the Tikcet history submitted by MCC.

Kind Regards


Cyril. I think document 8 on the appeal evidence is your PCN ticket history. That was the title of the ticket history document in my case.

This post has been edited by Umtwebby: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 12:43
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CYRIL
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 08:42
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It was in the local news about Manchester bus lane fiasco and the local council saying all signs are all fine and general public giving comments about the bus lane gate and how confusing and how easy to fall into the trap.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GranadaReports/s...%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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CYRIL
post Tue, 27 Feb 2018 - 15:23
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QUOTE (Umtwebby @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 12:42) *
QUOTE (CYRIL @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 11:18) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 17:02) *
hi CYRIL can we see the PCN history from their file please


Just sent an email this morning, as soon i hear or get any documents, i will let you know. I have also sent an email to MCC for the request, just in case if TPT can not give under the freedom of information.

Hi Stuart,
Would you be able to provide the Ticket History or do i need to get in touch with Manchester City Council, as i know when you submit the appeal Manchester city council send you the PCN ticket history.
see Attached example of the Tikcet history submitted by MCC.

Kind Regards


Cyril. I think document 8 on the appeal evidence is your PCN ticket history. That was the title of the ticket history document in my case.



Hi Umtwebby,
I already uploaded my ticket history, i thought he wanted the ticket history of the PCN i sent requested information from TPT and then i uploaed on here
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1354753

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1360199
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CYRIL
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 17:59
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Dear All,
I got this message today from TPT,so does this mean i will not get a call on Tuesday 06th March at 09:30am ?

From:Manchester
To:Appellant & Tribunal02/03/2018
16:46
The Council reviewed the case and are not contesting the appeal.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:28
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Yes it's a DNC.

Now submit a costs application.

Mick
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DancingDad
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:30
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:28) *
Yes it's a DNC.

Now submit a costs application.

Mick


What he said.

Request a review on costs based on the authorities wholly unreasonable and vexatious attempt to force this to appeal in the teeth of many previous findings against them on both the out of time and signage issues.


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Neil B
post Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:46
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What they said.

Well done.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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CYRIL
post Sat, 3 Mar 2018 - 11:36
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 20:30) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 2 Mar 2018 - 18:28) *
Yes it's a DNC.

Now submit a costs application.

Mick


What he said.

Request a review on costs based on the authorities wholly unreasonable and vexatious attempt to force this to appeal in the teeth of many previous findings against them on both the out of time and signage issues.


This is the letter I am thinking of sending and the breakdown of the cost, courtesy of below template letter from one of the forum user.

If you think I need to add or take off let me know all money will be forwarded to the forum, I don’t want it, it was good of this forum for Helping and advice and stopping these council robbing the innocent.

I know all these times I had to write letters, go on to the forum, Unnecessary stress, anxiety, worried and wasted time for searching and so on.

I do not know if the cost is extortionate, but no harm in putting it down, as it gone for over 3 months.


Wednesday 07th March 2018



Independent Adjudicator
Traffic Penalty Tribunal
Parking Services
Highways


Cost Applications of Penalty Charge Notice: (PCN) number MC
Vehicle registration mark:
Online Code:

Dear Sir /Madame/ Adjudicator,



Private: Cost Applications
Received 07/03/18

Reasons for the cost application:

There are two reasons why I consider that Manchester City Council (MCC) were wholly unreasonable in pursuing this matter

1 - The PCN was issued out of time. The PCN outlines the date of the alleged contravention as occurring on Sunday 05 November 2017. 28 days from this date is 02 December 2017. The PCN provides the date of posting as Friday, 01 December 2017. The earliest date of service, given the vagaries of Royal Mail, is Tuesday 05th December 2017, this being the second working day after the PCN was posted. The PCN is therefore served out of time and is invalid.

The ticket history at document 10 of the MCC evidence shows that the VQ4 was sent on 06 November 2017 and the response received on 07 November 2017.

The ticket was issued on 01 December 2017 and the service date was set by MCC as 05 December 2017. There was no evidence or explanation for the delay in the issuing of the PCN.

The MCC oral evidence when asked by the adjudicator in response to the matter being out of time was that the system was configured to cancel tickets that are issued out of time.

Therefore, the response to my representations shows that MCC never considered the out of time argument as the system did not tell them to. If Representations are properly considered rather than answered with what was clearly a templated response without consideration of the out of time argument, it would avoid un-necessary expenditure, time and effort to defeat a PCN that should never have gone beyond the representation stage.

In addition, my appeal also included as the primary point that the matter was out of time and provided a calculation and full reasoning to support this position. Clearly, MCC did not bother to check this evidence, I also messaged the TPT with the details. Once again, MCC could have read this evidence and halted the TPT.

MCC seemed intent on taking this matter, against all the evidence regarding time limits, to TPT whatever the arguments made. This wholly unreasonable action and attitude caused considerable stress and anxiety and wasted several hours of time to prepare the necessary arguments.

2 - The ticket should never have been issued in the first instance. MCC are aware that several adjudicators have expressed concern at the signage at this location. The signage to the left-hand side of this bus way was mistaken as applying to the cycle path. There have been numerous adjudications at this location informing MCC that the signage is deficient.



I have requested under the freedom of information of the all the Bus Lane PCN on Oxford Road (Nelson Street to Hathersage Road)and they all have been allowed the PCN to be void due to signage issue

Indeed, in this case, the signage was described as ‘hopeless’.

As with all matters of this nature, if there is an adjudication, notice should be taken by MCC of the comments provided by the adjudicator. Where there are repeated comments of a critical nature, then the enforcement at the location should be halted and the faults rectified before any further action recommences. It is a significant comment when an adjudicator tells MCC through their representative that they should not be enforcing this bus gate/lane until the matters regarding the signage and placement are rectified.

If this was the first or second matter to be brought before the TPT then I would consider that the actions of the council were unreasonable. As there have been numerous previous decisions, sufficient for the TPT to ask MCC to parade an official for this case so they can be specifically questioned on the signage issue moves the matter from unreasonable to wholly unreasonable.

The aggravating factor being that they have had ample opportunity after every other TPT hearing where the signage was criticised, in representation stage and submission of evidence stage in respect of this case, to review this matter and concede the PCN before subjecting us to the hearing.

Costs Applied For:

Costs and out of pocket expenses.

Visit 1 to scene, obtaining and viewing of evidence – 4 hours
Preparation and writing of Representations – 3 hours
Preparation and writing of appeal evidence – 3 hours
Visit 2 to scene following MCC evidence to TPT – 4 hours
Research of law, obtaining relevant legislation (Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016, The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England & Wales) Regulations 1996, Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005, The Traffic Signs Manual – Chapter 3 – Paragraph 15, Historic Traffic Penalty Tribunal cases – 6 hours
Attendance for TPT hearing by telephone – 1 hour
Out of pocket expenses - £30

Amount:
21 hours at £10 (or relevant rate) per hour = £210
£30 out of pocket
Total £240




Kind Regards

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