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PCN and Tow - Tower Hamlets Contravention 21
sabro
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 13:56
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Hi Guys,

Thanks in advance for any advice on this.

I parked my car in a residents bay with the correct permit and received a PCN and was towed on the 11/06/18. I don't drive my car often but when I parked the car the sign wasn't there (about a week before - I have no proof of this)

I didn't receive anything from the council to tell me the car had been towed and I still haven't - I realized on the 16/06 that it had been removed. I've contacted the pound since and found out that the car was towed at 14:06 on the 11th and arrived at the pound at 14:35. The ticket was issued at 11:11.

I can prove I wasn't in London that week if it helps but I also don't know when the sign was posted or if it is approved.

I've included al the images I have except a 'representations against removal of vehicle' doc included but it's generic. THere were more images of my car with a PCN on as well but again generic

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks

Sabro




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post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 13:56
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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 14:15
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The key here is that the council should have a log of cars in bay when sign went up. If your car was ready there, I would have expected them to relocate it as a res permit holder but Tower Hamlets are tow happy.

Whatever, there is nothing to lose by appealing the PCN and proportionality of tow.
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Brian Haytred
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 15:00
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 15:15) *
The key here is that the council should have a log of cars in bay when sign went up. If your car was ready there, I would have expected them to relocate it as a res permit holder but Tower Hamlets are tow happy.

Whatever, there is nothing to lose by appealing the PCN and proportionality of tow.



There is no legal requirement to take a log of parked cars when signs went up.

If the council can relocate it can also remove and impound.

4 days storage fee seems correct.


The next thing to do is post the papers given to you at the pound and ask the council for ALL their photos and ask them why they did not move to a free parking bay.
As you have paid you may as well fight as you have nothing to lose.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 16:49
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Get the photos and post all documents received at the pound. DO NOT ask the council why the did not re locate the car, That would be construed as representations and while you must make them it is worth getting all your ducks in a row first. Proof that you were out of town and how you travelled will also help


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Brian Haytred
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 19:49
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 17:49) *
Get the photos and post all documents received at the pound. DO NOT ask the council why the did not re locate the car, That would be construed as representations and while you must make them it is worth getting all your ducks in a row first. Proof that you were out of town and how you travelled will also help



If you email the council and say "before I make representations pursuant to Pt 4 of Appeals Regulations, please supply all relevant photos and explain why you did not
simply relocate the vehicle to another parking bay" then this cannot be construed as making formal representations.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 19:52
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QUOTE (Brian Haytred @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:49) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 17:49) *
Get the photos and post all documents received at the pound. DO NOT ask the council why the did not re locate the car, That would be construed as representations and while you must make them it is worth getting all your ducks in a row first. Proof that you were out of town and how you travelled will also help



If you email the council and say "before I make representations pursuant to Pt 4 of Appeals Regulations, please supply all relevant photos and explain why you did not
simply relocate the vehicle to another parking bay" then this cannot be construed as making formal representations.


Can't it?


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Brian Haytred
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:20
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If they do then that is a Procedural Impropriety and a standalone ground for appeal. So what is the down side?
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Wretched Rectum
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:39
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QUOTE (Brian Haytred @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:49) *
explain why you did not simply relocate the vehicle to another parking bay" then this cannot be construed as making formal representations.


Do removal policy's not advise that before removing to a pound, the council will see if it is possible to relocate the vehicle to an available parking place? If not, why don't they, it is an available option other than taking a vehicle immediately to an expensive storage pound.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:41
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QUOTE (Brian Haytred @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:20) *
If they do then that is a Procedural Impropriety and a standalone ground for appeal. So what is the down side?



Asking why they did not relocate is something for reps not before. I agree ask for the photos but any question re the contravention risks a NoR and a PI is not clear cut. I would rather not risk giving only one point and effectively giving up the reps stage

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 20:43


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Brian Haytred
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:04
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:41) *
QUOTE (Brian Haytred @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:20) *
If they do then that is a Procedural Impropriety and a standalone ground for appeal. So what is the down side?



Asking why they did not relocate is something for reps not before. I agree ask for the photos but any question re the contravention risks a NoR and a PI is not clear cut. I would rather not risk giving only one point and effectively giving up the reps stage



If you receive a NoR before formal representations have been made that is a clear cut PI.

(5) The grounds referred to in paragraph (4)(a) are—

(g) that there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority.


(5) In these Regulations “procedural impropriety” means a failure by the enforcement authority to
observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these
Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum and includes
in particular—
(a) the taking of any step,
whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise
than—
(i) in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or
(ii) at the time or during the period when,
it is authorised or required by the General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken;
and
(b) in a case where an enforcement authority is seeking to recover an unpaid charge, the
purported service of a charge certificate under regulation 21 of the General Regulations
before the enforcement authority is authorised to serve it by those Regulations.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:45
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QUOTE (Brian Haytred @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 22:04) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:41) *
QUOTE (Brian Haytred @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:20) *
If they do then that is a Procedural Impropriety and a standalone ground for appeal. So what is the down side?



Asking why they did not relocate is something for reps not before. I agree ask for the photos but any question re the contravention risks a NoR and a PI is not clear cut. I would rather not risk giving only one point and effectively giving up the reps stage



If you receive a NoR before formal representations have been made that is a clear cut PI.

(5) The grounds referred to in paragraph (4)(a) are—

(g) that there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority.


(5) In these Regulations “procedural impropriety” means a failure by the enforcement authority to
observe any requirement imposed on it by the 2004 Act, by the General Regulations or by these
Regulations in relation to the imposition or recovery of a penalty charge or other sum and includes
in particular—
(a) the taking of any step,
whether or not involving the service of any document, otherwise
than—
(i) in accordance with the conditions subject to which; or
(ii) at the time or during the period when,
it is authorised or required by the General Regulations or these Regulations to be taken;
and
(b) in a case where an enforcement authority is seeking to recover an unpaid charge, the
purported service of a charge certificate under regulation 21 of the General Regulations
before the enforcement authority is authorised to serve it by those Regulations.


but the council can clain representations have been made. An adjudicator might or might not agree. I have seen them found both ways. I would certainly be putting the questions in full representations but not before. The OP could as well as asking for photos ask for a copy of the removals policy. but IMO nothing more. Their choice.


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stamfordman
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:48
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This is getting a bit silly. OP has already said she has more pics, probably all there is.

OP - don't assume something is 'generic' - post everything you have so we are best placed to help.
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 21:57
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 22:48) *
This is getting a bit silly. OP has already said she has more pics, probably all there is.

OP - don't assume something is 'generic' - post everything you have so we are best placed to help.


Agreed almost always towing threads and a new member. with very fixed ideas


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sabro
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 09:00
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Hi Guys,

Uploading other documents now.








That's everything that I have.

Thanks

This post has been edited by sabro: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 09:02
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hcandersen
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:14
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I wonder whether they even have the capability to move vehicles as opposed to ‘remove from the highway’.

https://democracy.towerhamlets.gov.uk/docum...%20Vehicles.pdf
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Brian Haytred
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:34
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 13:14) *
I wonder whether they even have the capability to move vehicles as opposed to ‘remove from the highway’.

https://democracy.towerhamlets.gov.uk/docum...%20Vehicles.pdf



The power to remove a vehicle is derived from section 99 Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 and the Removal regulations made under that section.

Literature produced by a public body is utterly irrelevant.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:47
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Please stop cluttering this thread with irrelevancies. The council have removed to the pound and their authority to do so is not questioned nor can it be at this stage.

The OP needs to formulate representations. At present these would appear to be along the lines of the sign was not in place at the time of parking so no contravention. But we need to see far more.

The council photos and a GSV of the bay in question


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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:47
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Just to say that I've checked TH's policy in the document I have (it's old though) and a code 21 the removal policy says:

"Any vehicle listed at the time suspension notices were
erected and are on suspension list to be relocated only."
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:58
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 13:47) *
Just to say that I've checked TH's policy in the document I have (it's old though) and a code 21 the removal policy says:

"Any vehicle listed at the time suspension notices were
erected and are on suspension list to be relocated only."


Should have been clearer, my reference is to legal authority, if the council have a published policy that is another matter and gives rise to an argument re the proportionality of the removal under penalty exceeds

Stamf can you post a link please


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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 13:17
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PDF is here:

http://www.towerhamletsfoi.org.uk/document...Policy1%203.pdf

It's from 2008 though but we've quoted from it before in recent cases. There's no more recent one around but we could usefully put in another FOI - CP?


Advance warning notices are erected (Normally three days) prior to a suspension, detailing the dates the bays are suspended. In addition where there are not enough posts and plates in a bay or only part of the bay will be suspended a yellow triangle is placed at the location as an additional advisory notice. (The triangle plate is for further information to the public on suspensions; this is a part of an on going pilot scheme in Tower Hamlets.)
A note is taken of all vehicles registration numbers that are parked in the bay, at the time the suspension notices are erected, and a list is then given daily to the on-board Civil Enforcement Officer who will relocate these vehicles rather than remove to the car pound.


This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 13:23
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