Driving without due care and speeding Options

[Metal Gear]

Hi All,

Need some advice please:(

So 6 months ago, I was stopped by a police car on A road, who said I was speeding and driving without due care and attention(I think). He showed me the speed gun which said 72mph on a 50 zone.

He said he was giving me a section 59 notice and I would get something through the post.

I never got a section 59 warning but 6 months later, I got a single justice procedure notice and looks like they produced it 3 days before 6 months yet I received it just a day late, which I think doesn't matter.
However on his statement he doesn't mention he said he would be giving me a section 59 notice.

Now, I don't believe I was going that fast for sure but I can't know my speed for sure, could have been a bit over 50 and I think I did tell the office this too at the time. I had just joined the A road at that point, so would have sped up from 30 to get to 50.

For the driving without due care, he said I was weaving in and out of lanes. I did change lanes 2-3 times I think, but I signalled each time. I Went into the right lane, someone was tailing me, and there was space on the left so he went and I quickly did the same to come back to the middle and left maybe too I think.

There was no accident, I signalled to change lanes and I may have undertaken another car which was slower but in the middle lane when there was space on the left lane, but I was not speeding at the time(def not over 70).

I am really worried, as this could impact my job too and I have always had a clean licence. Should I get legal representation for it or simply represent myself?
Is it covered under house legal insurance or is that just for legal advice for anything?


Does it matter that he said I would get a section 59 and got a SJPN?
There was another car that was speeding and undertaking. Did they clock that one and then ended up catching me? (Does the LASER pro 4 gun tak ea picture of the car when it snaps the speed?)


Also I was alone, and afraid and I didn't understand why he made it sound really harsh, telling me they don't wat me on the road etc. I was pretty intimidated and just went quiet, and took the telling off lol

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Wed, 29 Sep 2021 - 11:03

[Advertisement]

[southpaw82]

The court will simply rely on the summary of facts read out by the prosecutor.

Yes, it is true…!

[notmeatloaf]

Also, what do you think the best and wors case scenario is if pleadin guilty and if pleading not guilty? Thanks:)

If you decide to plead guilty, you are telling the court you did drive without due care and attention.

The prosecution will set out their case. You can then attempt to mitigate their story. You can't disagree with the facts without opting for a Newton Hearing, where the court accepts you were guilty but adjudicates on the disputed facts.

From what you describe it is fairly low level DWDCA and so likely to attract 3-4 points + 50% weekly income fine with 33% discount for guilty plea + £85 costs + 10% victim surcharge.

If you decide to plead not guilty then it is a different ball game because the prosecution will ask for £620 costs if convicted, plus you lose the 33% discount. You will need to explain why the prosecutions allegation - that your driving fell below the standard of a careful and competent driver - is not true. If found not guilty then there are no points or fine.

DWDCA is a very wide ranging and vague offence. From your description - which sounds like aggressive undertaking in traffic - you will likely be found guilty. You are up against people who have given witness evidence many times. Maybe the impression is wrong but you will have to explain clearly why and how you were passing other vehicles in such a way to attract the attention of the police.

[Metal Gear]

Thanks!

Yeh it seems as though even if you are not guilty, unless you can prove they are wrong there is no way the court would believe your word against theirs and you cannot prove you were nto speeding unless you had some sort of a police approved device in your car accuratly logging you speed with the location too. Someone mentioned a dash cam in another forum but i didn't have one anyway at that point.

Also Thank you all for the feedback and tips on here, really appreciate it and have learnt a lot from it too:)

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 - 16:51

[TMC Towcester]

Thanks!

Yeh it seems as though even if you are not guilty, unless you can prove they are wrong there is no way the court would believe your word against theirs and you cannot prove you were nto speeding unless you had some sort of a police approved device in your car accuratly logging you speed with the location too. Someone mentioned a dash cam in another forum but i didn't have one anyway at that point.

Given your opening post, although you may be right in principle, it reads like you've been caught fair and square on this occasion. Although the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists think Plod invent offences, motoring offences are a permanent function of using the roads so it's very seldom they're made up.............

[notmeatloaf]

Although the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists think Plod invent offences, motoring offences are a permanent function of using the roads so it's very seldom they're made up.............

Whether or not the majority of cases are in order doesn't prove one case isn't in order. There are thousands of cases wrongly prosecuted.

[TMC Towcester]

Although the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists think Plod invent offences, motoring offences are a permanent function of using the roads so it's very seldom they're made up.............

Whether or not the majority of cases are in order doesn't prove one case isn't in order. There are thousands of cases wrongly prosecuted.

Which out of hundreds of thousands = 'seldom'...........

[666]

Although the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists think Plod invent offences, motoring offences are a permanent function of using the roads so it's very seldom they're made up.............

Whether or not the majority of cases are in order doesn't prove one case isn't in order. There are thousands of cases wrongly prosecuted.

Do you have any evidence to support that statement?

[BluntyMcCrow2]

Although the tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists think Plod invent offences, motoring offences are a permanent function of using the roads so it's very seldom they're made up.............

Whether or not the majority of cases are in order doesn't prove one case isn't in order. There are thousands of cases wrongly prosecuted.

Do you have any evidence to support that statement?

I’d wager no

This post has been edited by BluntyMcCrow2: Sun, 3 Oct 2021 - 16:39

[Metal Gear]

Hi, So an update on this.

I pleaded guilty to both but for the DWDCA I questioned if it really amounted to DWDA. i.e I admit i changed lanes but i signalled etc. They read this an an equivocal plea and have referred to court.
Does this mean i need to pay high court fees? Will i still get a discount for an early guilty plea i enetered?
Any tips or advice on what yo expect and what to sya or how ot prep? All new to me of course. Thanks again for the advice!


This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 23:43

[The Rookie]

You can’t plead guilty to something and then say why you weren’t guilty. Common sense really?

So they decided the two together do not amount to a guilty plea for quite understandable reasons.

If you withdraw the defence at the first hearing they may give you the full discount or drop you from 33% to 25%, but that’s unlikely.

If you mean prosecution costs (there are no court fees and this isn’t the high court) then no, that would only happen if you maintained the defence you put forward and it went to a trial.

[Metal Gear]

Yes i understand maybe it wasn't clear and that is why it has gone to court. I didn't say i wasn't guilty, i just explained my self and asked it it is driving without due care.
Someone mentioned on here if it ges to court there is a £620 fee. Cant really afford that and the fine

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Sun, 28 Nov 2021 - 23:51

[southpaw82]

I didn't say i wasn't guilty, i just explained my self and asked it it is driving without due care.

A guilty plea has to unequivocal. You made an equivocal plea, so the court has to treat it as a not guilty plea. If you don’t want to head for a trial you will need to make an unequivocal guilty plea.

Someone mentioned on here if it ges to court there is a £620 fee. Cant really afford that and the fine

I doubt anyone mentioned a fee. If you lose then the prosecution will apply for a contribution towards their costs. After a trial, that typically starts at £620.

[Metal Gear]

I didn't say i wasn't guilty, i just explained my self and asked it it is driving without due care.

Someone mentioned on here if it ges to court there is a £620 fee. Cant really afford that and the fine

I doubt anyone mentioned a fee. If you lose then the prosecution will apply for a contribution towards their costs. After a trial, that typically starts at £620.

ah yeh maybe they meant if it went to trial This letter just says reffered to a full court hearing. so as long i withdraw my defense there is no extra court fees?

If you withdraw the defence at the first hearing they may give you the full discount or drop you from 33% to 25%, but that’s unlikely.

Hmmm but i did enter an early guilty please for both. One i didn't argue, so it was an unequivocal please, and the 2nd one i explained but i did say i plead guilty. How do i find out if i get the discount? ask on the day to the judge?

Btw they also only asked for salary details but didn't ask for expenditure, so how cna they assess whether i can afford a fine or not? i.e if i pay fine i may not be able to pay the bills that month.

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 - 19:42

[southpaw82]

You get a 1/3 discount for pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity. The discount decreases as you go on, down to 1/4 for a later guilty plea then 1/10 for a guilty plea on the day of your trial. To maximise your discount you ought to plead guilty at the earliest opportunity, perhaps by writing to the court entering an unequivocal guilty plea?

Prosecution costs (not court costs) are generally £85 following a guilty plea and upwards of £620 if you’re found guilty after a trial.

[Metal Gear]

Thanks
Do you know what the fine is likely to be for this kind of offence? Do they just base it on salary and not expenditure? Online they only asked for salary. so how do they determine a fair fine based on income?

This post has been edited by Metal Gear: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 - 23:24

[southpaw82]

Fines do not take into account expenditure (unless it’s exceptional). Otherwise, frugal people would get punished more.

[notmeatloaf]

Thanks
Do you know what the fine is likely to be for this kind of offence? Do they just base it on salary and not expenditure? Online they only asked for salary. so how do they determine a fair fine based on income?

It is almost always based on salary unless you have Boris Johnson-style commitments to pay child support or similar exceptional costs.

Fine is based on the severity of the offence, either band A (25-75% of weekly income), band B (75-125%) or band C (125-175%). Without seeing statements etc. it's difficult to place where you would be but these are the sentencing guidelines.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offenc...n-revised-2017/

It's worth highlighting the reasons for reducing the seriousness/mitigation

Factors reducing seriousness or reflecting personal mitigation
No previous convictions or no relevant/recent convictions
Remorse
Good character and/or exemplary conduct

If you defend your driving it is just that, a defence and you've immediately lost brownie points for remorse. You need to be able to tread the fine line between explaining your driving and making excuses for your driving. As this is very difficult to do, sometimes it is best to fall on your sword unless the police have made factual inaccuracies.

[Metal Gear]

Thank you @notmeatloaf and @southpaw82

@meatloaf
"
Factors reducing seriousness or reflecting personal mitigation
No previous convictions or no relevant/recent convictions
Remorse
Good character and/or exemplary conduct"

Yep these are all good reasons to mention

Totally understand what you mean by defending your driving and explaining it and it is difficult to explain your reasoning without sounding like you are denying you did anything wrong.