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Bus lane PCN blank ‘from’ and ‘to’ on PCN
jonouk
post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 08:30
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Hi,

My mother received a PCN for a contravention 33J -using a route restricted to certain vehicles - from London Borough of Havering. On the PCN it states “The vehicle above was observed from to on 28/01/18 ...” I.e. the from and to spaces are blank. I have attached an image of the PCN with details scrubbed.

My question is, does that make the PCN invalid? She would like to appeal on mitigating grounds as it was leaving hostpital after my fathers cancer diagnosis, however if this is easier it might be much quicker.

Thanks in advance


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post Thu, 15 Feb 2018 - 08:30
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jonouk
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 12:58
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OK good enough for me.

So, on to the form, there are only 3 questions really (outside of admin):

4. Would you like a postal or personal decision?

5 Grounds of appeal

"The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur" seems the only applicable one (there is no procedural impropriety option and the other options are stolen, hired or not the owner; or penally charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case)

6. Details of appeal - should I restate anything or add anything or just attached the formal representations?
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:14
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QUOTE (jonouk @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:58) *
OK good enough for me.

So, on to the form,

Just hold fire a mo.
More to say/discuss yet.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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DancingDad
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 13:22
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Do not ignore the signage as they did either.
You gave a clear description, including map and photos showing no signs on the route you took.
They simply say signs were in accordance but ignored otherwise.
Basic tenet of enforcement is that signs must adequately convey the restriction.
They have failed to show any indication that signs were present, simply saying that the motorist must be aware of restrictions.
The latter is true but can only be achieved with signage.
If it ain't there, the contravention did not happen.

To me this is the elephant in the room and should be dealt with before any technical issues, not as an afterthought.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:31
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 14:22) *
Do not ignore the signage as they did either.
You gave a clear description, including map and photos showing no signs on the route you took.
They simply say signs were in accordance but ignored otherwise.
Basic tenet of enforcement is that signs must adequately convey the restriction.
They have failed to show any indication that signs were present, simply saying that the motorist must be aware of restrictions.
The latter is true but can only be achieved with signage.
If it ain't there, the contravention did not happen.

To me this is the elephant in the room and should be dealt with before any technical issues, not as an afterthought.


+1

A sound appeal against the contravention is always best, technical' s second Though I would like to see the council get their bottie slapped re the technical issue
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jonouk
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 15:11
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So I covered both inadequate signage and procedural impropriety in the original representations. Should I include anything over and above that?
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Neil B
post Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 22:59
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QUOTE (jonouk @ Mon, 16 Apr 2018 - 16:11) *
So I covered both inadequate signage and procedural impropriety in the original representations. Should I include anything over and above that?

Sit tight a mo.
We are discussing an issue off forum.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 09:46
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Sent you a PM.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 11:58
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 10:46) *
Sent you a PM.


Report from rsg444 that he won on the 21 vs 14 day argument
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Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 12:00
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 12:58) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 10:46) *
Sent you a PM.


Report from rsg444 that he won on the 21 vs 14 day argument

Yeah saw it.
I'll explain to Jono what I'm thinking, when I get a mo and copy you in.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 19:41
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jonouk

Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant.
I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April?

So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th

Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow.

Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.'


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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jonouk
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:17
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 20:41) *
jonouk

Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant.
I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April?

So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th

Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow.

Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.'



Yes, you’re right - the trouble with doing things second hand!

Ok will send the form first thing tomorrow. Still not sure what to put for q4 (postal or personal) or q5 (grounds for appeal)

Tia
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:22
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QUOTE (jonouk @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:17) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 20:41) *
jonouk

Scrub my idea. It is no longer relevant.
I've just noticed that the rejection was dated 26th Match but you only told us on the 16th April?

So your deadline to submit an appeal is close - 24th

Go ahead and get it registered, now, with details to follow.

Just say 'I rely on my original representations and other matters arising. Full details to follow.'



Yes, you’re right - the trouble with doing things second hand!

Ok will send the form first thing tomorrow. Still not sure what to put for q4 (postal or personal) or q5 (grounds for appeal)

Tia


Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions
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jonouk
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:32
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:22) *
Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions


Q5 is the Grounds for appeal - I’m thinking the only option is “The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur” as there’s no ‘procedural impropriety ‘ option.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 21:39
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QUOTE (jonouk @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:32) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 22:22) *
Q4 put personal, you can always change later. Q5 just write full submission to follow. They will acknowledge registration and at a later date tell you by when you must make these submissions


Q5 is the Grounds for appeal - I’m thinking the only option is “The contravention alleged by the Authority on the PCN did not occur” as there’s no ‘procedural impropriety ‘ option.


sorry. Its contravention did not occur for the signage and the penalty exceeded etc for the PI this is because if the PCN is invalid then the penalty can only be nil
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Neil B
post Fri, 20 Apr 2018 - 23:17
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Do bear in mind only Mother can do this, or gives you written authority.


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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jonouk
post Tue, 24 Apr 2018 - 06:18
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 21 Apr 2018 - 00:17) *
Do bear in mind only Mother can do this, or gives you written authority.


Yes, mother did the online version and nominated me as her representative. Personal hearing for 24th May confirmed this morning by email schedule.

Do you need any info from that?
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