PCM UK Ltd Parking Ticket Options

[Fubar1972]

Hello, I am looking for some advice.

My daughter is a joint tenant of a flat in Surrey. On the 2nd of August (in the late afternoon) she parked her car in her allocated bay in the residents underground car park. Unknown to her the permit had fallen off of the dashboard. When returning to her car the next morning she had a ticket from PCM (UK Ltd) - £60 if paid within 14 days, £100 if not. I wish to appeal the notice. The car is registered to my home in Devon under my daughters name. She has a tenancy agreement which details her name and rental address and also a permit for the bay. Where do we stand legally? Is there anyone who can assist us in the wording of the appeal letter. I don't want to just ignore the ticket.

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[matt285]

Hello, I am looking for some advice.

You said you're the Registered Keeper of the car? If this is the case then don't do anything at the moment. Wait for them to write to you. Once they have done so come back to this post and we can sort it out together

[Fubar1972]

My daughter is the registered owner of the car but it is registered at my Devon address not her Surrey rental address.

[matt285]

My daughter is the registered owner of the car but it is registered at my Devon address not her Surrey rental address.

Ok that's fine as well. As long as the car is not registered to a hire company / lease company / employer or something similar.

Wait for the letter and then come back for the next stages... and ideally read up in the meanwhile on how it all works

[Fubar1972]

Sorry I'm a little confused. Some places recommend appealing. Are you suggesting just ignoring it and waiting for the letter to arrive at my Devon address in my daughter's name?

[Slatz]

Sorry I'm a little confused. Some places recommend appealing. Are you suggesting just ignoring it and waiting for the letter to arrive at my Devon address in my daughter's name?

Yes that is what is being recommended. It costs them money to obtain the registered keeper details.

The lease for the flat will trump any request to display a parking permit. Get a copy of the lease while you wait for the letter, check what the lease says regarding parking.

Once you have received the letter to the registered keeper come back here with details and all the options will be explained.

The options range from:

pay the ticket off to make it go away (Not recommended on here usually)
Ignoring it
Opting out of their permit system
suing them for trespass to your property

[Fubar1972]

Good morning all,

I have now received the NTK letter from PCM (UK) Ltd.

I wish to send a letter appealing the 'charge' (From reading other threads it apears that PCM will reject the appeal no matter what my letter states !!)

I have printed off the front page of my daughters lease agreement to accompany the letter. (I cannot find anything in the lease that refers to parking, however, her parking bay is clearly marked with her flat number)

Will it be sufficient for my daughter to simply state that 'I was parked in my own allotted bay'

Would someone be kind enough to draft a letter of appeal that I could use

[matt285]

Good morning all,

I have now received the NTK letter from PCM (UK) Ltd.

I wish to send a letter appealing the 'charge' (From reading other threads it apears that PCM will reject the appeal no matter what my letter states !!)

I have printed off the front page of my daughters lease agreement to accompany the letter. (I cannot find anything in the lease that refers to parking, however, her parking bay is clearly marked with her flat number)

Will it be sufficient for my daughter to simply state that 'I was parked in my own allotted bay'

Would someone be kind enough to draft a letter of appeal that I could use

Could you put up an anonymised copy of the letter you got?

As for the initial appeal I would go with the following - no need to send them a copy of the lease which will enclose all sorts of information that they have no right to know:

"Dear Sir or Madam,

I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle with registration number XYZ and have received your speculative invoice # xxx on yy.

Please note that I wish to appeal this invoice as you do not have the right to levy a "parking charge" and thus it is not due. You have insufficient capacity over the land to offer the driver of the vehicle any contract for parking (irrespective of whether such a contract has validly been formed and whether any of the terms you purport to apply have validly been incorporated). Further, the charge you purport to levy is clearly for Liquidated Damages but you have not provided any proof whatsoever that it is a genuine representation of loss.

I thus assume that you will cancel this charge, should I not hear otherwise from you within reasonable time.

Should you however think you have a valid claim and wish to uphold your charge then I expect that you will provide me with the means to refer your claim to the independent arbitrator

Yours faithfully,

XYZ."

Send this by post and get a (free) Certificate of Posting from the Post Office.

Then come back once they have refused your appeal and issued you a POPLA code.

Good luck.

[Fubar1972]

Thanks for this Matt285

I'll try and get a copy of the letter (edited to remove all personal details) on the site tomorrow.

I was only going to send the front page of the lease which lists my daughters name and the address as proof that she is a tenant (is this acceptable?)

Can I request PCM send any reply to the address that the vehicle is registered to? (My daughter is quite a worrier and I would not like her to get upset over the tone of the letters that these people send)

[Fubar1972]

I've just noticed the last sentence on the NTK letter, it states as follows:

"PCM as agent of the landowner, has the right to seek payment of this parking charge'

[bama]

does daughter own the bay ? (is it in her deeds/lease)

[matt285]

I was only going to send the front page of the lease which lists my daughters name and the address as proof that she is a tenant (is this acceptable?)

You can do this but I would keep this for the POPLA stage, which is when someone independent (well at least in theory) looks over the matter.

Can I request PCM send any reply to the address that the vehicle is registered to? (My daughter is quite a worrier and I would not like her to get upset over the tone of the letters that these people send)

Normally they will send replies to the address which you used on your letter, so no need to specifically ask them to - just use whatever address you want to have them send it to.

[bama]

does daughter own the bay ? (is it in her deeds/lease)

[sifitz]

Very simple this one.

Weak appeal saying no need to display permit. When PCM reject make sure you get 10 digit POPLA code. Can take a few letters after rejection. You have 28 days to lodge appeal.

Request that PCM supply a copy of their contract with the land owner to manage the parking area. This has been successful to squash a few tickets. Simply state that no conceivable financial loss has occured to either the parking company or the land owner as a result of your failure to display a permit. The PCN does not relate to pecuniary losses, but business running costs for which you are not liable. Therefore, the charge is a fine, which is not allowable under the law. Only the police and the council can fine you.

Also worth noting that if PCM wish to proceed to court, I believe that they have CCJs outstanding from their clamping days. If they took you to court, presuming you lost at POPLA, and very unlikely, you could make it clear to them that should you lose in court, even more unlikely, you would ask for your payment to be acredited to one of their creditors. No money for them!!!!!! Wasting their time etc etc.

PS. I won at POPLA with this method, same circumstances.

[Fubar1972]

My daughter has received her appeal rejection letter from PCM Ltd
I believe they have given me a POPLA number (it is listed on the letter as a 'Verification Code')
There are saying that I can appeal online. Should they have enclosed a form if I wish to appeal by post?
I have read on another forum that POPLA do not take into account 'mitigating circumstances' such as forgetting to display the permit. Is this correct?
My daughter does not own the parking bay but the space came with the flat.
What is my next move, do I just appeal to POPLA, if so, what evidence do I need to send?
Will I see any evidence that PCM Ltd have?
Do I ask PCM Ltd to se a full copy of the contract they have with the landowner?

[SchoolRunMum]

My daughter has received her appeal rejection letter from PCM Ltd
I believe they have given me a POPLA number (it is listed on the letter as a 'Verification Code')
There are saying that I can appeal online. Should they have enclosed a form if I wish to appeal by post?
I have read on another forum that POPLA do not take into account 'mitigating circumstances' such as forgetting to display the permit. Is this correct?
My daughter does not own the parking bay but the space came with the flat.
What is my next move, do I just appeal to POPLA, if so, what evidence do I need to send?
Will I see any evidence that PCM Ltd have?
Do I ask PCM Ltd to se a full copy of the contract they have with the landowner?

You appeal online to POPLA, but just beware because POPLA online appeals get chopped short if you exceed the undeclared character limit. And POPLA doesn't pick up on this nor does the website tell it has been chopped - the only clue you get is that the acknowledgement email shows you 'your appeal wording' back to you.

Read this thread and the POPLA outcome, won because the PPC could not show any genuine pre-estimate of loss:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=81862

and then by contrast, how to lose the same sort of case by not saying the right things and just relying on mitigation and 'what happened' (NOOOO!):

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...67#post61573767

I post as Coupon-mad on MSE and added this footnote to that case:

' Sad one because that STUPID decision was of course based 'on the evidence before me' according to the adjudicator - and you just know that a robust appeal would have won. Just needed the right sort of appeal wording as ever!! These cases turn on the evidence the motorist gives and I see no evidence raised at all about the lack of legal status of PCM to form contracts here; the lack of compliant contract with the landowner; the rights/easements lawfully granted to residents to park there (which override any contractual allegation formed by a sign); the signage being pants as PCM's signs are; breaches of POFA; breaches of the BPA Code of Practice...etc...etc. '

So do a decent POPLA appeal and you will win, as e do 100% of the time (Somesue wasn't helped by the forum as she didn't ask in time).

How to win at POPLA:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...81&posted=1

...and a case like yours at the same stage (compare notes with this person and make sure you both have all the killer POPLA points!):

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=84318

The appellant will be sent a copy of PCM's 'evidence' (LOL!) after the appeal has been submitted. It will arrive in the post with no explanation and you can sit and laugh at it with your daughter if you know you have made a strong POPLA appeal!



HTH

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 - 01:01

[Fubar1972]

Thanks for this SRM
Can I use roughly the same wording as 'ngeorge' has in his letter?
I am waiting for a photo of the actual PCM signage from my daughter
Do I need to send a copy of the tenancy agreement with the appeal?

[SchoolRunMum]

Can I use roughly the same wording as 'ngeorge' has in his letter? = Yes if it all makes sense for your case
I am waiting for a photo of the actual PCM signage from my daughter = OK if it helps your case (no entrance signage, for example) but don't miss the deadline for POPLA
Do I need to send a copy of the tenancy agreement with the appeal? = No because (astonishingly) POPLA don't care about the fact people have a right to park there (luckily you will win on GPEOL anyway).

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 - 00:56

[Fubar1972]

I've just received the PCM 'evidence pack' that is 24 pages long. Is there anyone who can look at it for me over a secure connection without me having to redact all personal details?
If this is not possible what is the best way to proceed?

[kirkbyinfurnessl...]

I've just received the PCM 'evidence pack' that is 24 pages long. Is there anyone who can look at it for me over a secure connection without me having to redact all personal details?
If this is not possible what is the best way to proceed?

Yes i will certainly have a look for you.

my connection is secure

Email it to princekiera@gmail.com and i will look at it straight away, no need to remove any details, and ill let you know what i think, or upload to drop box and i will pm my main email address so you can share the files.

This post has been edited by kirkbyinfurnesslad: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 - 17:27