TOWER HAMLETS PCN NOTICE & TOW CHARGES £665! SUSPENDED PARKING BAY, TOWER HAMLETS PCN NOTICE & TOW CHARGES £665!! SUSPENDED Options

[Fenchurch]

My car was parked in a suspended parking bay in Tower Hamlets on 8 November. I have a valid on street parking permit for the correct Zone. It is a quiet street near to my block of flats which often has parking spaces available. I don’t drive the car that often as I can walk to work or, like most in London, take public transport, and only have it for occasional use. I happen not to pass down that street when travelling to work as it is in the other direction.

I was not aware that a notice/notices had been erected in the street notifying of the proposed parking suspension on that day. So I have no photographic evidence of the notice other than that provided by the Council online which is not very helpful as the sun is shining on it and so it can’t really be read. I also have no photographic evidence of where precisely the car was parked in the street on the day it was towed.

I went to use the car yesterday (18 November) and found that it was missing. After first thinking it had been stolen I eventually called TRACE and was informed that it had been towed and impounded back on 8 November! I had no idea it was gone as I had no reason to pass down the street and had not needed the car in the meantime. I had received no other notification in the post. Of course now I wish I’d checked on it sooner.

On calling Tower Hamlets car pound, I was informed that the charge was in total an eye watering (literally) £665 (consisting of a £200 tow charge, £65 PCN charge and £40 storage charge per day). I have this morning retrieved the car and paid the charges, otherwise the costs would have continued to wrack up quickly at a hefty £40 after 9am each day.

The PCN notice ‘contravention time’ is 9.01am. I was told on the phone that it was towed at 9.17am although there is no other evidence of this time in the documentation. The guy on the phone from the pound also said that if the car was already parked there before the notice was put up, then they were obliged to just move it to another nearby location (which I believe they could have done as there are often spaces in the area). Whereas, if you come and park in the bay after the notice has been put up, then they are entitled to tow it to the pound. He also said that he thought that the notices were put up, up to 5 days in advance of the suspension date but wasn’t sure about that.

I was given the TH appeal information form (‘Representations Against Removal of a Vehicle’) and I think the 28 day appeal time runs from today.

The key issue for me is that I know that the car must have been parked there when they put up the notices as I hadn’t used it. I know that the last time I was at the car was the morning of Friday 26th September before work as, ironically, I had to replace the on street parking permit which was expiring while I would be away. I didn’t actually move it that day. I had been away from London (for which I have flight ticket evidence) from early Saturday 27th October to Friday 2 November (when I got back late in the evening). So I can account for that period of time evidentially when the car would not have been moved. However, I know that I also did not use the car the week following my return as I just didn’t need it and so the car must have been in the street when, I suspect, the notices were put up. Frustratingly, I can’t prove that in any way.

When I collected the car from the pound, I queried if I could find out when the notices would have been put up. The attendant in the pound said that they receive a ‘suspension list’ daily detailing the street where the bays are suspended and which had a column detailing the Reg. numbers of any cars that are parked in the street when the notices go up. That is how the tow people know whether to either move or tow the vehicles. They will move those on the list but tow away any others. I did ask if he would have the record for 8 November but he denied that they would have it.

Queries

Given the scale of the charge I will have to appeal. So my questions at this stage are these:

1 How do I find out the date and time when the Suspension Notices were erected in that street? Are the Council obliged to take photographs of the cars that are already parked there? Is it possible to get a copy of the ‘suspension list’ that the Pound received for that day?
2 Where in the regulations does it say that they must only move the vehicle if it was parked there when the notices were erected, or that they may tow it, if the car parks there after? I have looked at the Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986 (R 5C) but that doesn’t go into that level of detail. Are there any other applicable Regulations that I should get familiar with?
3 Did sufficient time pass between receiving the PCN and the Council towing the car? Seems from the information I received on the phone that they left 16 minutes before proceeding to tow it. Do they need to wait 15 minutes before towing?
4 If the Notices were put up after my return to London (as I suspect) but during the period when I know I did not use the car, is it just my word against the Council’s that the car was already parked when they did that? Subject to there being any photos from that day, I assume it is.
5 After how long is the Council obliged to notify the Registered Owner in writing that they have the car in the pound? The guy at the pound referred to 14 days, 20 day and 35 days. In other words, he didn’t know. Are they allowed to just let the charges mount up before notifying the owner?
6 The Council’s pictures of the notice on the day the car was towed are not very clear. Should they have taken a closer image identifying the detail of the suspension, date and time, as evidence?

I appreciate that many of these questions are no doubt covered elsewhere on these forums but I am just starting out on this journey so I’ll need some more time to get to grips with it! Any suggestions, help or advice would be most gratefully received as I don't really know where to begin.

I have tried to link the pictures of the (redacted) PCN and the Council’s pictures from there website as follows:



















Many thanks in advance

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[Mad Mick V]

OP----you've sussed out the key ingredients of your appeal--parked before the suspension sign was posted and towing pretty much immediately.

I cannot see how today is the last day for an appeal if you picked the car up today ----others will confirm.

Have you a better photo of the suspension sign and what it says?

Hope you got the contact details of the guy you spoke to.

Mick

[stamfordman]

The relocation rather than tow to pound is not in regs but in TH's policy, which they should adhere to of course.

Leaving a car unchecked for so long in London - and especially in councils such as TH where there is a lot of res parking and a lot of bay suspensions - is a recipe for big trouble.

[cp8759]

The relevant council policy is here: https://www.scribd.com/document/384380127/P...elocations-v4-3

It's a mandatory policy, vehicles that were parked before the suspension signs were put up must be relocated to to the nearest available legal parking space.

[Fenchurch]

Thanks both

No, that's the only photo of the notice there is. It's the one the council posted to their website for the PCN which I accessed earlier. Can I argue that the notice isn't clear enough for either party to determine its contents and whether it is compliant?
By the time I went to the street, the notices had been removed.

I'll have a look for TH's parking policy re towing.

I think today would be the first day of the 28 day appeal period, rather than the last.

In getting info to put together the appeal, do you just email the TH email address for appeals and list what you need? Are they responsive to that?

Didn't get the name of the guy at the pound unfortunately.

Didn't realise TH was so bad for these sorts of things. Definitely won't be leaving the car unchecked for so long again! Lesson sorely learned.

Any other advice you can think of would be great.

Many thanks again

[cp8759]

If the council cannot produce a satisfactory photo of the suspension sign at the tribunal stage, you are virtually guaranteed to win. We have seen numerous cases where a parking appeal has been allowed because the photos of the sign taken by the CEO are too low quality to be read. But we're a long way off that for now.

What information do you think you need from the council? If you want to ask whether there are further CEO photos, email the appeals people.

If you want further information about the suspension, such as what the terms of the suspension are and when the signs were put up, try suspensions.dispensations@towerhamlets.gov.uk

[Fenchurch]

Thanks, that's helpful. But how do you find out when the notices were put up? Will they give you that info if you ask?

I'd argue that if I don't have that information, I can't form the basis of an appeal.

Thanks cp9759 - I just read your post after my last one.

I'll get a list together of the info I think I need from the appeals people and email them.

I'll also email the TH suspensions email to see if I can get any info from that.

Many thanks for your help and suggestions.

I'll post back with how I get on. So much reading to do!

[stamfordman]

They are supposed to have a log of vehicles in a bay when a suspension sign goes up. i suspect yours isn't in the log as they should have consulted it before towing, but asking for the log for your car will be part of the appeal.

you say the last time you were 'at' the car was 26 September - presume you mean October - and what does 'at' mean - is that when you parked there.

The PCN was 8 November? You're obliterated the date on the PCN for some reason.

[Fenchurch]

Thanks

So, do I hold off requesting further info such as the suspension log, clearer photos, exact time the car was towed etc. and instead include that as part of my representations? or do I email (someone at TH) for that now, so that I can use it in compiling representations?

I was 'at' the car on Fri 26 October (sorry - was def Oct, not Sept) because I had to replace the parking permit - as I was leaving London the next morning for a week and the then current permit would have expired when I was away. I didn't move the car though, just stuck on the permit and went to work by foot.
That's how I remember when I was last at the car. I reckon the last time I parked there was 20 October, the previous Saturday.

I was away until late 2 November so need to know when they erected the notice although I didn't move it after I came back.

Yes, the PCN date was 8 November, timed 9.01. Looking at the photos, there were other cars there, so mine can't have been the only to be towed that morning.

Looking at the 'statutory grounds for representations' at © in the TH document provided, is that a ground for appeal on the basis that they only left 16 minutes before towing and it sounds like they should have left 30 minutes (I'm not a repeat PCN offender)?






At the minute I'm thinking along these lines for my representations:

1 I was parked lawfully and had a valid parking permit for that location
2 At the time I parked the vehicle, there were no suspension notices erected
3 As such, I parked before the notices were erected and so my car should have been moved, not impounded, in accordance with TH parking policy
4 the Council's photos are not clear enough and it is not possible to determine whether the suspension notice was in compliance with the form required

I need to try and get some more evidence together though, and references to Regulations etc. before formulating decent representations. More reading to do....

Also, TH's website doesn't provide much away on how you go about obtaining more info!

Thanks again

[Fenchurch]

Also, © of the statutory grounds of appeal which suggests 30 mins should be given if not a repeat PCN offender seems to contradict point 21 of the TH parking policy for the removal of vehicles (under Priorities for Removals) which says 15 minutes if immediate use is not required....

[John U.K.]

So, do I hold off requesting further info such as the suspension log, clearer photos, exact time the car was towed etc. and instead include that as part of my representations? or do I email (someone at TH) for that now, so that I can use it in compiling representations?

See what others say, but I would e-mail now, beginning with something like
"re PCN No. TH 123456 and subsquent removal 08/11/2018 Release date 18/11/2018 Re.mark ABC123

In order that I can make informed representations against the above please supply me by return the following information/documents:
1)....
2)... etc "

If they reply promptly, they may treat your request as reps, which is more grist to your mill. Whatever you do, do not miss the deadline for submitting the formal reps.
They may place the case on hold until responding, so keep hard copy of the e-mail and any automated receipt, and also check daily the online status of the PCN.

I was away until late 2 November so need to know when they erected the notice although I didn't move it after I came back.

"it" being the notice? the car?

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 19:43

[Fenchurch]

Ok thanks

If they consider the initial email request for info as my representations, will I still be able to submit the further formal reps (before the 28 day deadline) and are they obliged to consider them? or is it a one shot thing?

'it' refers to the car, not the notices. I didn't' move the car after I came back (although I can't prove that) and I never saw the notices. By the time I realised the car was gone, the notices were gone too.
The only pictures I currently have are those above which you can't make out as the sun is shining on them taken from the TH website

When you say check the online status of the PCN, is that by checking on the TH website? When I insert the PCN no. & Reg details it comes up with Outstanding: £0.00 (as I had to pay it at the pound) and the photos. That's it.

Once you make representations, does the status of that appear there too?

many thanks

[John U.K.]

Ok thanks

If they consider the initial email request for info as my representations, will I still be able to submit the further formal reps (before the 28 day deadline) and are they obliged to consider them? Yes or is it a one shot thing?

'it' refers to the car, not the notices. I didn't' move the car after I came back (although I can't prove that) and I never saw the notices. By the time I realised the car was gone, the notices were gone too.
The only pictures I currently have are those above which you can't make out as the sun is shining on them taken from the TH website

When you say check the online status of the PCN, is that by checking on the TH website? When I insert the PCN no. & Reg details it comes up with Outstanding: £0.00 (as I had to pay it at the pound) and the photos. That's it.
That's the big hole in the system. Towaways entitle you to make reps after payment, but the Council computers treat all payments as "case closed". Hence your need to request info to make informed reps. At least the photos are still there

Once you make representations, does the status of that appear there too? Probably not... see my preceding comment.

many thanks

Post your draft e-mail request for info. here for comment before sending, and Meanwhile, start drafting your formal reps. and post here for comment.

You need to make reps under two headings

1) Against the PCN itself [if these accepted, all monies refunded]

2] against the subsequent removal [even if (1) declined, acceptance of theese would mean refund of removal and srorage charges].

But be prepared, Council are likely to reject all reps, and you will have to go on to adjudication. Nothinmg further to lose but yoour time in doing so.

So make sure that you submit reps in time.



This post has been edited by John U.K.: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 - 20:51

[Fenchurch]

Thanks John U.K. I'll get in with starting drafting tomorrow and post drafts.

[Fenchurch]

Hi

I emailed TH suspensions.dispensations last night for information of the details of when the suspension notices were erected in the road in question between 26 Oct and 9 Nov 2018.

I received a response this morning stating that I must make an FOI request to TH via their website for the information.

I am planning to submit the FOI request as follows:

"I am requesting information as listed below regarding the suspension of parking bays in St Jude’s Road, E2 between the dates 20 October 2018 and 9 November 2018 and related parking enforcement actions taken.

Please provide:

1 full details of any and all suspensions of the parking bays in St Jude’s Road, E2 for the period referred to above.
2 confirmation of the date and time when any suspension notices were erected.
3 all photographs of all suspension notices erected in in St Jude’s Road, E2 during the period referred to above.
4 a copy of the suspension log/suspension list for date or dates during the above period in respect of St Jude’s Road, E2 - being a list of the car registration numbers of the cars parked on the date(s) when any suspension notices were erected.
5 any and all photographs taken of the cars which were parked in St Jude’s Road, E2 at the time when any such suspension notices were erected during the above time period.
6 any and all photographs taken in St Jude’s Road, E2 relating to PCN numbered [●] dated [●] November 2018 (timed [●]am).
7 all of the CEO’s notes and records relating to PCN numbered [●].
8 all photograph’s taken by the party responsible for moving/removing cars from St Jude’s Road, E2 on [●] November 2018 relating to PCN numbered [●] and car registration [●].
9 copies of all extant Traffic Management Orders relating to St Jude’s Road, E2. If there are maps or diagrams, please provide them in colour.
10 copies of any Suspension Orders made in respect of St Jude’s Road, E2 for the period referred to above and any applications for such suspensions."

Queries:

- is there anything else I should add to the list?
- do I also email tickets@towerhamlets for some or all of the same info (particularly relating to the PCN) (making it clear that these aren't my representations)?
- do I wait for the FOI response before submitting my formal representations letter (provided I DON'T miss the 28 day time limit)?

Thanks

[stamfordman]

That's not right - they can't make you go through FOI to get basic info on the contravention. However, i would cut down the number of requests and focus just on your case. The key is the suspension log.

[Fenchurch]

Agreed, the info should be freely available without an FOI request but no choice but to make it when I don't have any other access to it...

Will cut down the list in the FOI to the following:

1 full details of any and all suspensions of the parking bays in St Jude’s Road, E2 for the period referred to above.
2 confirmation of the date and time when any suspension notices were erected in St Jude's Road, E2 for the period referred to above.
3 a copy of the suspension log/suspension list for date or dates during the above period in respect of St Jude’s Road, E2 (being a list of the registration numbers for the cars parked on the date(s) when any suspension notices were erected).
4 all photographs of all suspension notices erected in in St Jude’s Road, E2 during the period referred to above.

I'll email tickets@towerhamlets for more info/photos re the PCN as follows:

Dear Tower Hamlets

Re PCN numbered [●] issued on [●] November 2018 at [●]am (the “PCN”)

In order that I may submit formal representations in respect of the PCN please provide the following information/documents:

1 full details of any and all suspensions of the parking bays in St Jude’s Road, E2 for the period referred to above.
2 confirmation of the date and time when any suspension notices were erected together with any photographs of those notices erected in in St Jude’s Road, E2 during the period referred to above.
3 any and all photographs taken in St Jude’s Road, E2 relating to the PCN and car registration numbered [●].
4 all of the CEO’s notes and records relating to the PCN.
5 all photograph’s taken by the party responsible for moving/removing cars from St Jude’s Road, E2 on [●] November 2018 relating to the PCN and car registration [●].
6 a copy of the suspension log/suspension list for date or dates during the above period in respect of St Jude’s Road, E2 (being the list of the car registration numbers of the cars parked on the date(s) when any suspension notices were erected).

Please note for your records that the above request does not constitute a submission of formal representations in respect of the PCN.

The formal representations will follow once I have the full information relating to the PCN referred to above.

Regards



What do you reckon?

Thanks!

[stamfordman]

They won't send you the log but must confirm if your car was on it on not.

[hcandersen]

Why bother? It's a fishing expedition and the more complex you make it the less chance you'll get what you want in time.

Compile reps now, but post draft here.

Writing under FOI is frankly a waste of time and risks you losing control of time.

You state:
I parked my car at the location on or around *****.
I last attended my car on **** in order to display my new permit.
I did not notice any suspension signs in place advising of the forthcoming suspension.
The car remained in situ until removed by the council on ******.
As the signs were not in situ when I became aware that the car had been removed, I have to rely wholly on the evidence provided by the council in the form of photographs.

My representations are as follows:
1. The contravention did not occur.
The PCN states the location as ***** Street. No further information is supplied.
The photos of the suspension sign do not show my car neither can the details of the suspension be made out.
I therefore assert that my car was not in contravention at the alleged time. If the authority reject these grounds then they are obliged to supply objective evidence with any NOR(as indeed they would with any appeal to the adjudicator), a simple statement would be insufficient.

2. The 'penalty charge or other charge paid.....in the circumstances of the case'
This follows because I assert that my car was parked prior to any signs being erected and that under the council's policy, which is binding on the authority, my car had to be removed to another location on a road and that the authority had no power to remove my car to a pound (for these purposes the Removal and Disposal etc. Regs and the RTRA are not relevant, the authority's officers had no delegated authority to act outwith the council's policy).

[Fenchurch]

Thanks hcanderson

My thinking in submitting the FOI anyway is that at least that process could be running in the background - if some extra info comes out of it then maybe it would be something extra I can use at appeal to adjudicator if initial appeal fails. At the minute I have very little to go on.

But in the meantime (i.e. not waiting for the FOI to produce the info) I'll get on with formulating the Reps on the basis of your suggestion.

I've seen a lot of commentary on here about arguments to put if the form/wording of the suspension notice is in contravention with the various Regs etc. I'm assuming that's not a relevant argument to my case as I say that it's not possible to decipher the notice from the images provided and so I can't determine whether they are compliant or not?

Also, leaving aside the FOI, do I email tickets@towerhamlets for all photos, notes etc. relating to the PCN?

Thanks for all the guidance.

I'll start the reps later.....just need to do some work atm!