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UKCPM PCN, Hounslow Vista
Ronie
post Wed, 24 May 2017 - 10:31
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Hi

I have got a ticket posted on my windscreen in April and during that time I saw the man.

The ticket was upside down so, the man was not able to see it properly hence put the PCN.

But I shown it to him and he said I will update the system saying have seen the ticket but you will have to appeal to cancel it.

Which I did by they came back saying it is rejected as signboard clearly says it should be visible.

Below letter I posted in appeal:

-------------
To
Appeals Department

Subject: Wrongly Parking ticket fine attached to the vehicle

This is regarding the Parking fine posted on my Vehicle parked in Hounslow (on VFS site). The Parking ticket was shown on dashboard but seems Ticket Checker had difficulty to view it. We discussed with the ticket checker and shown him ticket immediately. He agreed the ticket is right and valid but I still need to appeal to eliminate this charge from your System. Hence, below is detail :

Name:
Address:
Car Reg no:
Parking Ref no
Reason: There was valid Parking ticket there and shown it to ticket checker. He wrote a note into his system already. Please check and resolve this issue. For your reference, I have attached the ticket copy to the appeal letter.

I have already spoken to my Solicitor friend and he agreed as you have a proof of ticket with last three digits () of car printed on it. Which prove you paid valid car park charges. Hence, requesting you to act on it immediately and cancel the charge.


Thanks & regards
-----------------


Should I reply to them? or stay quite?

Thanks
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post Wed, 24 May 2017 - 10:31
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 09:18
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Defence. With a C. UK English spell check needed.

Some people have been taken to court, yes, of course. COMpleted Cases, or jus tthis thread, will show some claims.
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Dave65
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 09:22
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As usual send by First class post and get free certificate of posting from Post Office.
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Ronie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 07:41
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Hi

I have now got reply back

with below details:

1) FAQ
2) Information sheet which states seeking debt advice and all(generic letter)
3) Reply Form (having option :

->I agree I owe the debt
-> I owe some of the debt but not all of it
-> I am getting or intend to get debt advice
-> What documents are you sending with this form? What information do you need?

4) Letter before claim

What should I do next?

Thanks
Ronie
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 08:06
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So in post 37 you sent a letter asking for specific documents

BAsed on the above you didnt get those documents

So what do you think you should do next? If it were me, I would respond back, confused as to why they have sent some forms, but not the specific information you requested. For the avoidance ofdoubt, you are entitled to the following.... under the PAP for debt claims, in order to narrow the topics under dispute and to allow the alleged debtee to substantiate why they believe a debt is owed by you.

IS the LBC the same as the previous one?
We cannot mind read.
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Ronie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 09:18
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Hi

Thanks for your reply.

They sent attached LBC:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qykvzO_U7A...iew?usp=sharing

Thanks
Ronie
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 09:36
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OK, I cant access that from here, and it doesnt answer my query

I am deliberately trying to get you to do some work, as you are insanely and frustratingly passive so far.
So, answer the queries. Do some work yourself on this.
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Ronie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:09
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Thanks for helping me out.

Yes, I am frustrated with these people. Its been more than one year and they still harassing where there is no loss to the land owner.

The LBC has detail for the incident. So, I may need to write up something else.




This post has been edited by Ronie: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 14:05
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Jlc
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:12
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QUOTE (Ronie @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 11:09) *
...where there is no loss to the land owner.

ParkingEye v Beavis put pay to that. It's notoriously difficult to convince a judge otherwise, but not impossible under certain conditions.

Use PAP to narrow issues. (And what you want to request prior to the actual claim, that will follow)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ronie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:41
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DOes that mean there is no chance for me to defend myself?

Last time we sent :

Re: LETTER BEFORE CLAIM dated for Ref :

I am writing to acknowledge receipt of the above letter.

As instructed by your letter, I can’t see the reason for claim for a charge in there. I would request you to send sufficient details of the claim you are making to allow a suitable response and conform to the requirements of PAP & include all required paperwork with your letter. I would need copies of all the paperwork that will be used to substantiate the claim. Also, would need copy of notice sent to keeper along with copy of contract between Claimant and Landholder that permits them to take action at the location with witness statement stating a contract exists is insufficient.

Moreover, I have read the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims under the Civil Procedure Rules 1998 (hereby referred to as “the PAP”) and the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct (hereby referred to as the “PD”). I refer you to Annex A of the PD which clearly lays out in section 2 what the claimant’s Letter Before Claim (hereby referred to as the “LBC”) should contain. I do not believe your LBC complies with the PD as it neglects to include various pieces of information listed within.

I wish to remind you that paragraph 4 of the PD states that the court has the power to apply sanctions for non-compliance with the PD. The fact that you refer to the PAP suggests to me that you believe you have sent me a compliant LBC and that I am liable to respond under the PAP, yet the fact that your letter does not comply with the PD suggests that I am not. If you are indeed asking for a response under the PAP, please explain why you have not complied with the PD and send a new LBC that does comply with the PD. I will then be able to comply with my obligations under the PD.

I expect an actual response to my letter rather than another generic template letter that does not address my questions and concerns.
--------------------------------------


-------------

So, should I ask them again all this info?

Thanks
Ronie
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Redivi
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 10:59
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Dear Sir

Ref ****

I have received your letter dated ****

I refer you to my response to your letter dated ****
A copy is enclosed

I note that I have not received the requested information nor even the courtesy of an acknowledgement
For the moment I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt

If, however, you commence legal proceedings without providing the information and documents after this second request, I will assume that your behaviour is deliberate
My defence will inform the Court accordingly

For the avoidance of doubt, I deny any debt to UK Car Park Management
Your client's original allegation that the vehicle's permit was not displayed is without foundation
When you have provided a properly formatted Letter Before Claim in accordance with the Pre-action Conduct for Debt Claims AND provided the requested documents and information, I will make a more detailed response

Yours Faithfully


PS You've left your name in the picture
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:07
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Noone said you had no hope! Just that your ONE argument so far isnt necessarily watertight.
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Jlc
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:29
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 13:07) *
Noone said you had no hope! Just that your ONE argument so far isnt necessarily watertight.

Indeed, the loss angle isn't going to win it alone - I raised it because it was mentioned a few times.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ronie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:35
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gr8 thanks. I was having ticket but just was not shown properly.

My arguments:

1) I have shown the ticket to Parking attendant and still he gave me ticket ( I have seen him doing something in front of my car. So ran to him)
2) Parking attendant was not having any ID. Nothing to show he worked for Parking company.
3) The PCN does not have any contact detail to appeal. I had to google them to find and given my detail to them (which was stupid thing I have done - innocent fault).
4) No loss to Land Holder.
5) Sign says ticket should be displayed all the time but does not say it needs to be shown upside smile.gif
6) Moreover, the machine asking for car reg (last three digit) which is printed on ticket too. Hence, ideally parking attendant should have something to check by using reg number.

Should we add more?

And should I send same letter again by sounding confusing?

Thanks
Ronie
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 12:56
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2) Not relevant to a court case
3) Not relevant to a court case
4) VERY difficult to explain post Beavis
5) Dont word it like that, but unclear signage is included on basically EVERY defence
6) Indeed you can argue that the attendant could determine what vehicles had a valdi paid period purely from the machine logs - thats is surely the purpose of requiring a VRM, to aid in situations such as these? (IT isnt - its to stop transfer of unused time. BUt make the arguemnt, it is reasonable of you to argue it)
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Ronie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 13:56
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Ok, thnx...Anything else we can add?

What about responding to them now?

Thanks
Ronie
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 13:59
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Post 50 gave you the response you need know, word for word. DO you understand what its saying? It gives them a tough position to answer IF they choose to take it to court.

IF you want to add more arguments, then yuo need to get OUT of this thread and give others a good read.
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Ronie
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 14:17
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Thanks will check other threads too
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Redivi
post Wed, 25 Jul 2018 - 14:21
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Yes

You're not writing that letter for the benefit of UKCPM or Gladstones
You're writing it to show the court that Gladstones is refusing to follow the Pre-action Protocol and ignoring you

Gladstones, by the way, won't have any of this information
It never sees any of its clients' documents before it issues a claim

It only looks at them if the claim is defended

Don't provide any additional arguments at this stage
Telling Gladstones that you will provide more details when they send the documents you've requested TWICE makes clear that you have other defence points
As they have no idea what the claim is about, they won't understand them anyway

Anything you write that isn't necessary can be twisted against you or used as a distraction
For example, if you mention land-holder loss, it gives them the opportunity to write to you about Beavis and argue that you have no defence
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Ronie
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 08:51
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Thanks Redivi. It makes sense smile.gif
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