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Alleged speeding offence
VulcanEssex
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:57
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This post has been edited by VulcanEssex: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 07:44
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post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 13:57
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Jlc
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:46
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I understand your frustration but I note your fishing trip in your letters - this never works.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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fh3hd7dh3d1qz
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:50
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Aerial topology. A map showing where the laser speed device was and the target vehicle was, plus the claimed speed will show if slip has likely taken place if the angles & distance are right when taking into account the beam spread measured in radians.

Printing off an OS map or even using a zoomed in Google map with matching satellite imagery to show the road matches the satellite image when both pieces of paper are held together and up to the light, may help along with a pencil and protracter.

Depending on the layout of the road, you may not even need to have a video to prove slip will have been inevitable, if its drawn on a map and shown over 3 copies of the map one each for 0.1seconds of the 0.3window of time used to calculate a speed, where the car would be positioned on the road, along with the beam spread drawn out like a pie chart segment indicating the maximum area the laser can cover.
This way you dont even need to worry about the light sensor and what angles it accepts reflections from and what it discards.

70mph = 112.63498920086Kph
1,126,349 metres per hour or
18772 metres per minute or
312 metres a second or
31.2 metres every 0.1 second.

Tracking a vehicle which has moved 93.6 metres in the 0.3 seconds it takes to calculate the speed at the right angles will guarantee slip, all that needs to be determined is the angles.

And for the record I sacked Nick Freeman aka Mr Loophole from representing me on my 2nd court case and represented myself with success as the CPS took my version of events.

Sure the legal approach might show a slip up in procedures, but lets face it lawyers are generally not mathematicians, engineers or coders, and hackers know all too well how features can be bugs, just look at the latest CPU bugs in the news affecting Intel, AMD & ARM.
But its easier to show the device is incapable of accurate speed measurements in the first place imo.

All the OP needs to do is zoom into Google maps, place a marker where the laser speed device was situated, state the distance shown at the time the speed was calculated and what lane, if more than one, the vehicle was positioned in, along with the length of the vehicle in question, from there you can work out quickly if slip occurred.

Would there be any demand for app to be available in the various smart phone app stores that provided pictorial slides to show how slip was inevitable in some cases?

Hackers know there is more than one way to skin the cat.

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VulcanEssex
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:50
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This post has been edited by VulcanEssex: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 07:53
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southpaw82
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:55
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What is a "non conditional offer"?


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peterguk
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:55
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QUOTE (fh3hd7dh3d1qz @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:50) *
Stuff


All irrelephant to OP's case.


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VulcanEssex
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:00
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This post has been edited by VulcanEssex: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 07:53
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southpaw82
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:02
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QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:00) *
Non conditional offer of 3 points and 60 quid fine. Maybe they aren't the words I don't have it in front of me

A conditional offer of 3 points and £100 maybe?


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VulcanEssex
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:10
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Indeed.

This post has been edited by VulcanEssex: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 07:53
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peterguk
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:16
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QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:10) *
Indeed.

So the option is to go for the science or attempt to mitigate and reduce


If you have (very) deep pockets, and won't moan if you have them emptied, go for the science. Personally, i would not.

The whole story is full of fluff and bluster. Bottom line seems to have been a few admin issues. Does that affect the speeding allegation?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:18


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StationCat
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:20
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QUOTE (fh3hd7dh3d1qz @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:50) *
70mph = 112.63498920086Kph
1,126,349 metres per hour or
18772 metres per minute or
312 metres a second or
31.2 metres every 0.1 second.

Tracking a vehicle which has moved 93.6 metres in the 0.3 seconds it takes to calculate the speed at the right angles will guarantee slip, all that needs to be determined is the angles.

70 mph is 31.3 metres per second not 312. So it moved 10.4 metres in 0.3 seconds. If you are going to offer 'scientific' advice please check it before you post wink.gif

With regard to the slip issue - if this laser speed gun is similar to the Ultralyte, then its beam divergence is about 1 foot per 100 metres. This ping was at a distance of 74 metres so the beam is less than one foot wide - not much chance of slip when aimed on the front of a car.

This post has been edited by StationCat: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:29


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baggins1234
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:27
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QUOTE (fh3hd7dh3d1qz @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:50) *
All the OP needs to do is zoom into Google maps, place a marker where the laser speed device was situated, state the distance shown at the time the speed was calculated and what lane, if more than one, the vehicle was positioned in, along with the length of the vehicle in question, from there you can work out quickly if slip occurred.


So you’d need to know exactly where the device was located? Not just the van but where exactly the device itself was? Both northings and eastings?
Exactly where the targeted vehicle was? Northings and eastings?
Exactly where on the targetted vehicle the laser was placed? Taking into account a bonnet perhaps curved in three dimensions.

Oh and bear in mind the caveat on Google maps about accuracy. We had a poster here a while back who’d overlooked that....

Happy days
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VulcanEssex
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:56
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Jlc
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:00
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QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:10) *
So the option is to go for the science or attempt to mitigate and reduce

The sentencing guidelines are well known - there's little you can do in regards to reducing those. (For a guilty plea costs of £85, surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30) - normally there's a 33% reduction for guilty plea but this now be lower (25% possibly) for a later guilty plea)


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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StationCat
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:03
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QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
My overall point is that they the police used a sledgehammer to crack a nut. If they used their discretion as they did with the s172 then I would have accepted the training just to avoid this.
They did - you were offered a fixed penalty but rejected it
QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
I wasn't aware was exceeding the limit literally all the cars around me were doing roughly the same speed.
So you were exceeding the speed limit?



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Jlc
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:06
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QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
Their equipment as Mr science points out is not accurate.

That's not true. There are circumstances were the reading can be wrong but it is far more likely you were going at 80mph - it's not crime of the century.

As I said you need to focus - even if you were the only car pinged and the bikers got off it doesn't provide any defence for you.

QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
I believe my cards singled out because it is a skyline.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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VulcanEssex
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:10
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This post has been edited by VulcanEssex: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 - 07:54
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captain swoop
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:12
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You don't know you were 'singled out' the other cars you were with could also have been pinged.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (VulcanEssex @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:10) *
And they have to offer me the conditional offer next


Could you show me the relevant law for that?

QUOTE
and will claim for thd damages this will cause me over the next five years.

Good luck with that.


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VulcanEssex
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:30
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NewJudge
post Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:46
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I don't know whether fh3hd7dh3d1qz is for real or having a complicated laugh but this is no laughing matter for VulcanEssex. One particular piece of advice I would not rely on is this:

QUOTE (fh3hd7dh3d1qz @ Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 20:15) *
I'll add one other thing, anyone with an interest in something can declare themselves as an expert witness in court under English law, so if you plan to represent yourself and rely on the above info, also state your interest and thus your assertion you will be standing as an expert witness despite the obvious conflict of interest.


An expert witness is a person who has knowledge of a specific subject beyond that of a layman (or a "non-expert"). Pitching up and saying "I have an interest in laser speed detection devices and so I am an expert" is not likely to cut the mustard. I have an interest in the Apollo Moon programme. I followed them all live on TV and have since read a few books. But I am no more an expert than the next man. Add to this that an expert witness is supposed to be independent and it is easy to see why a defendant would be hard pushed to be accepted as an expert witness in the circumstances described.

Another puzzle is that if the principles of physics outlined make laser speed devices so unreliable it's a wonder nobody with the time to spare (and expertise) has managed to highlight this in the past.

With your limited time available I think it is a bit late to embark on a scientific challenge to the accuracy of an approved device.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Tue, 9 Jan 2018 - 22:47
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