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Driving across the footway., Legal or not?
Neil B
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 18:17
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i.e. to access a hardstanding in front of a house but without a DK?

Opinions and citations please.


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17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 18:17
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 18:45
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http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/184

Leads to

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/34

Then to

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/37/schedule/7

But I think this is the clincher

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/schedule/3

schedule 3 (f16)

[F16Offences under the Highways Act 1835 and the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984
Section 72 of the Highways Act 1835
Driving on the footway
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Neil B
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 19:08
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You gem.

But RTA1988 s 34 (3) ?

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/34


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17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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ford poplar
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 22:59
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Footway is part of the road but not part of the carriageway.
Just pay Council to install a driveway DK so you can traverse the pavement legally?
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Neil B
post Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 23:29
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 23:59) *
Just pay Council to install a driveway DK so you can traverse the pavement legally?

But my question is, how does that make it legal?

Or, rather, the other way round, how is it illegal without a DK?

(No it's not me!)


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17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 16:10
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Opinion- it must be legal. My flat car park doesn't have properly dropped kerbs, but the maps I got when I bought the place as well as the plans from when it was built show the car park with entrances.

I doubt the council would have allowed it to be built with a car park if the access wasn't legal.

This post has been edited by glasgow_bhoy: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 16:11
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Steve_999
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 16:34
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From the West Sussex County Council web site:

"It is an offence to drive across a footway to access your property without a legally constructed dropped kerb. This is because it may cause damage to the footway or the services (gas, electric, water) underneath."

Link here.

Unfortunately they do not give any reference to legislation to support their statement.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 17:05
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 00:29) *
QUOTE (ford poplar @ Fri, 22 Sep 2017 - 23:59) *
Just pay Council to install a driveway DK so you can traverse the pavement legally?

But my question is, how does that make it legal?

Or, rather, the other way round, how is it illegal without a DK?

(No it's not me!)


The provision of a VAC--vehicle access crossing is legal but you are missing out the planning permission aspect which usually specifies conditions of use..

Planning permission is usually required under The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015 because it states that the construction of an access on to an unclassified road is permitted development, if the access is required in connection with another permitted development i.e. a hardstanding or driveway no planning permission is required but the Council issues a licence for the work to be undertaken. If there is no other permitted development the VAC alone requires planning permission.

Under the Highways Act :-

“184 (3) Where any land is being, or is to be, developed in accordance with a planning permission granted, or deemed to have been granted, under the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, and it appears to the highway authority for a highway maintainable at the public expense that the development makes it necessary—

(a)to construct a crossing over a kerbed footway or a verge in the highway so as to provide an access for mechanically propelled vehicles to or from the carriageway of the highway from or to premises adjoining or having access to the highway; or

(b)to improve or otherwise alter a made-up vehicle crossing that provides such an access as is mentioned in paragraph (a) above (whenever constructed),

that authority may serve on the owner and the occupier of the premises a notice stating that they propose to execute such works for the construction or, as the case may be, alteration of the crossing as may be specified in the notice. “

So the proud new "owner" of a VAC would have planning permission or a licence to undertake the work from the Council and --official sanction to drive over a VAC which crosses footway or verge.

So does that mean, without a VAC, it is illegal to cross the footway/verge? Yes and no --- read S 184 of the Highway Act:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/184

1(b) says you can do it but subject to conditions from the highway authority. However (17) states it will be an offence if there is a contravention of such conditions --"If a person knowingly uses a footway or verge as a crossing in contravention of any condition imposed under subsection (1)(b) above, or knowingly permits it to be so used, he is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine"

Ergo. unauthorised crossing of footway and verge is illegal.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 17:09
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Neil B
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 17:22
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 18:05) *
So does that mean, without a VAC, it is illegal to cross the footway/verge? Yes and no --- read S 184 of the Highway Act:-

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/section/184

1(b) says you can do it but subject to conditions from the highway authority. However (17) states it will be an offence if there is a contravention of such conditions --"If a person knowingly uses a footway or verge as a crossing in contravention of any condition imposed under subsection (1)(b) above, or knowingly permits it to be so used, he is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine"

Ergo. unauthorised crossing of footway and verge is illegal.

Mick

Seems a mess cos s34 of RTA 1988 says

"(3)It is not an offence under this section to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on any land within fifteen yards of a road, being a road on which a motor vehicle may lawfully be driven, for the purpose only of parking the vehicle on that land."

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/34

Which would appear to suit those with a hardstanding/drive but no DK ?


--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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oldstoat
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 18:44
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but you are not parking on the land you drive over to reach the land you are parking on So I think that scuppers driving over a verge to get to a driveway or hardstanding.


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mickR
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 19:19
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You could always just drive across it in hope the council dont do as Enfield council did....
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Neil B
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 19:24
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QUOTE (oldstoat @ Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 19:44) *
but you are not parking on the land you drive over to reach the land you are parking on So I think that scuppers driving over a verge to get to a driveway or hardstanding.

Is that not land?
What is it then - outer space?

QUOTE (mickR @ Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 20:19) *
You could always just drive across it in hope the council dont do as Enfield council did....

Yeah I'd seen them; Silver St, Enfield as well.



--------------------
17/10/11.

Sme f yu may have nticed I dn't currently have a letter ' ' n my keybard!!!!

S if I appear t be talking mre gibberish than nrmal then that's the answer - the missing 'o' --<<<< Aha, clever eh!? (reserve on-screen keyboard)
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mickR
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 19:36
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They actually erected them blocking cars on the drive. Some people subsequently dug them up. No idea if they were fined over that tho.
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glasgow_bhoy
post Sat, 23 Sep 2017 - 22:55
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Thats just petty on Enfields part. Surely those residents were helping alleviate strain on local on-street parking facilities?!
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ford poplar
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 03:43
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Maybe, but #11 does not show any Council approved DK to allow access to private hard standing. The access blocking barriers were installed on Council (public) owned land, which should be removed if property owner pays for an approved DK access.
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mickR
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 10:46
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It wasnt just those properties it was the whole length of southbury road some residents decided to apply for dropped kerb retrospectively others still have the bollards.
In the OP case it's dependent on the actions of the council as to how they deal with it , they may not be bothered or...

This post has been edited by mickR: Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 10:47
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bobthesod
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 14:46
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What would be the legal position ie involving police if the house has hard standing ( ie front garden paved over) for three cars but no dropped kerb.
If i,or any other driver were to park outside their house adjacent to the raised kerb when no cars are parked on the hard standing.
Apart from the occupier getting arsey with my vehicle is there anything he could legally enforce?

I might add that this is in a side road in the Borough of Wokingham Berks and the road is that narrow, no syl or dyl that you have to park with the nearside whels on the pavement to allow vehicles to pass
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DancingDad
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 15:06
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QUOTE (bobthesod @ Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 15:46) *
What would be the legal position ie involving police if the house has hard standing ( ie front garden paved over) for three cars but no dropped kerb.
If i,or any other driver were to park outside their house adjacent to the raised kerb when no cars are parked on the hard standing.
Apart from the occupier getting arsey with my vehicle is there anything he could legally enforce?

I might add that this is in a side road in the Borough of Wokingham Berks and the road is that narrow, no syl or dyl that you have to park with the nearside whels on the pavement to allow vehicles to pass

Nowt they can do lawfully unless they can persuade BiB that you are causing an obstruction.
Nasty notes, paint, keying, punctures or as a guy in Liverpool did, clingfilm are other options.
Sorta place you park at own risk.
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oldstoat
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 15:55
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What is it then - outer space?

No it is land that you are not parking on, but are driving over to access land you wish to park on You can park on the land, within 15 yards but not pass over it to park on land further away, that is how I read it.


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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 17:24
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Don't know about the legalities, but a former neighbour of mine went to huge lengths to conceal the fact that he drove across the footway to park in his garden. The hardstanding was the type that allows grass to grow through it, the chainlink fence had a section that could be moved, and he carried two short lengths of 2 x 2 cut diagonally to form ramps in his car! Given that there were no parking restrictions for miles, it all seemed rather bizarre.
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