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Haringey Suspended CPZ Bay, Haringey Suspended CPZ Bay
titeyorkshire
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 13:23
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Help please!!
This is my first council ticket and i would appreciate all help. Thankfully i found this forum JUST in time, i hope. Im new so im sorry if some of this is not done the right way.
On 23 april i got this ticket on my windscreen.


This is for Scotland Green N17. I have a CPZ but on match days i cant even park in most of this street as it is now suspended for coaches. (dont get me started on this!)
Here are Haringeys pics:







I would appreciate any help fighting this one please.
My initial thoughts are:
1. This is a street with only one way in and one way out. I pulled in to the entrance of the street, turned around and parked near the entrance of the street. On exiting the car, facing forward there is no suspension sign on the large post which is at the entrance of the street showing that this is a CPZ area. The suspension signs are behind me which i have no reason to look at because i parked my car and walked forward to leave the street and walk along the high road.
2. I understand? that T&cs must be displayed below the yellow sign, which I notice had been posted later on the 24th, after i had taken my pictures. Neither my pictures nor Haringeys pictures show these small print signs, so they were not there and the signage is Incomplete?

I think i went a bit too crazy blanking out my pictures, sorry about that, although i can confirm the details i blanked are correct unfortunately.
ARe my reasons above correct? Are there any further points i can use to fight this PCN please?
I appreciate your help.
Thanks.


I have my own pics but cant seem to upload all, sorry.


These show my view on exiting car. No suspension signs can be seen as i walk forward, not even on post at entrance to street.

Clearer pic:
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titeyorkshire
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 11:23
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Hi please can you help with the next step.
Below is haringeys response to informal Challenge.




Rejected of course

Then came the NTO on the 31 july:






Am I right in thinking that I use the same letter for my challenge. To the NTO as I did for the informal challenge?
Thanks for your help
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 11:39
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post up exactly what you sent by way of challenge. and perhaps a bit more urgency might give us opportunity to refine things more


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titeyorkshire
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 13:04
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It's there on page one of this thread. Here was my challenge, sorry I think the ordering of this thread may have become jumbled somehow.


Dear Haringey,
I am contacting you to make representation regarding PCN number xxxxxxxxx.
1. The alleged contravention did not occur
The suspension purpose is wrong. Please see Haringey council’s evidence and my own evidence attached. You will see the sign states the purpose as “Coach Parking”. I refer you to Road Traffic Order 3224591 which states:
“(p) to suspend an existing ‘THN’ ‘shared-use’ parking place and an existing loading bay and provide taxi stopping areas, on which stopping by all vehicles except taxis would be prohibited during the Event Day restriction hours, at the following locations:-
SCOTLAND GREEN - (i) the south-west side, extending from a point 15 metres south-west of the western kerb-line of High Road, Tottenham south-westward for a distance of 16 metres; and (ii) the south-west side, extending from a point 34 metres south-west of the western kerb-line of High Road, Tottenham south-westward for a distance of 10 metres;”
The order for Scotland Green makes no mention of coach parking. The purpose is for taxi stopping which was not stated on the signage. Therefore the suspension purpose is wrong and the PCN is invalid. I request that it be cancelled.

2. There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority.
Signage is unclear and could not be seen by the driver. Scotland Green is a street with only one entry/exit, the far end being blocked by bollards. Prior to the PCN, the driver pulled into the entrance of Scotland Green from the High Road, turned around immediately at the entrance of Scotland Green and reversed a short distance to park very close to the corner of Scotland Green and the High Road. On exiting the car and walking forward towards the High Road, no suspension sign could be seen, as there are no suspension signs on the posts closest to the car at the entrance to Scotland Green. There is no way the driver would have seen any suspension sign. If the suspension begins from the corner of High Road and Scotland Green then there should be a sign on that post. Please refer to my pictures submitted as evidence which show the view that the driver would see from the car on exiting and walking forwards. Therefore signage is unclear and does not follow procedure and the PCN is invalid. I request that it be cancelled.

Yours sincerely,

Ignore where it says, "the driver" as I changed that to say "I" after being advised to do so. I think this is an earlier draft but it stayed essentially the same after I edited it. I will find the final draft that I used to challenge. So am I correct in thinking I just use the same challenge again?
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cp8759
post Sat, 10 Aug 2019 - 20:34
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Re-post the NtO redacting only your name, address and (if it really bothers you) the number plate. Leave everything else in. At the moment we don't even know how much time you have left, as you've redacted any information that might actually be useful.


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titeyorkshire
post Sun, 11 Aug 2019 - 10:58
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PCN was issued 23/04/19
Informal Challenge sent by me 07/05/19
Informal challenge rejected by Haringey letter dated 10/07/19
NtO sent dated 31/07/19
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cp8759
post Sun, 11 Aug 2019 - 12:30
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I've asked the council for a copy of the TMO, for some reason they're not listed on their website.


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cp8759
post Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 14:59
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I've been sent copies of:

The Haringey (Tottenham Hotspur Stadium Event Days) (Waiting Restrictions) (No. 1) Experimental Traffic Order 2019 http://bit.ly/2Z7a4hf
The Haringey (Tottenham Hotspur Stadium Event Days) (Bus Parking Places) (No. 1) Experimental Traffic Order 2019 http://bit.ly/2YZe0ww
The Haringey (Tottenham Hotspur Stadium Event Days) (Taxi Stopping Areas) (No. 1) Experimental Traffic Order 2019 http://bit.ly/31Cg4w3

The reference on the sign is clearly taken from the third order (see page 5). I suspect an administrative cock-up, they've got their coach and taxi bays mixed-up, and it hasn't dawned on them that to convey a change of use they cannot use a parking suspension sign. In any event the council fails on LATOR 18 plus they've used the wrong contravention, as the PCN should have been issued for code 45 - Stopped on a taxi rank (but to do that they'd need to fix the signs first).

They can't use the power to suspend parking placed that exists in the principal orders because 6(a) of the Taxi Stopping Areas order says:

during the Event Day restriction hours, the provisions of The Haringey (Tottenham
CPZs) (Designations) Order 2015 and The Haringey (Tottenham CPZs) (Section 6)
Order 2015 are hereby suspended insofar as they apply to a length of street specified
in the Schedule to this Order;


The taxi order itself does not allow a taxi rank to be suspended for the purposes of coach parking, so I don't see how the council can dig itself out of this hole unless a more recent order has been made.


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titeyorkshire
post Sat, 24 Aug 2019 - 13:35
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As NtO was sent dated 31/07/19 then I am coming close to the deadline and would like to draft and send my challenge ASAP. Please can you check over my draft and offer any suggestions:
Thank you for you help.



Dear Haringey,

I am contacting you to make representation regarding PCN number XXXXX.
1.The alleged contravention did not occur

The suspension purpose is wrong. Please see Haringey council’s photo evidence and my own photo evidence attached. You will see the sign states the purpose as "Coach Parking". The suspended area can only be governed by The HARINGEY (TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR STADIUM EVENT DAYS) (TAXI STOPPING AREAS) (NO. 1) EXPERIMENTAL TRAFFIC ORDER 2019 which makes no mention of coach parking. The purpose is for "taxi stopping" which was not stated on the suspension signage. To convey a change of use, Haringey cannot use a parking suspension sign. Haringey fail to follow The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, Regulation 18, as stated below:

Traffic signs

18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; and

©in a case where the order revokes, amends or alters the application of a previous order, the removal or replacement of existing traffic signs as the authority considers requisite to avoid confusion to road users by signs being left in the wrong positions.

(2) The order making authority shall consult the appropriate Crown authority before carrying out the requirements of sub-paragraphs (a) and © of paragraph (1) in relation to a Crown road.

(3) This regulation is without prejudice to section 85 of the 1984 Act(1) (traffic signs for indicating speed limits).


Therefore the suspension purpose is wrong and the PCN is invalid. In addition, Haringey have used the wrong contravention. I request that it be cancelled.


2.There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority.

Signage is unclear and could not be seen. This section of Scotland Green is a road with only one entry/exit, the far end being blocked by bollards. When parking my car at around 10pm on 22nd April 2019, I pulled into the entrance of Scotland Green from the High Road, turned around immediately at the entrance of Scotland Green and reversed a short distance to park very close to the corner of Scotland Green and the High Road. On exiting the car and walking forward towards the High Road, no suspension sign could be seen, as there are no suspension signs on the posts closest to the car at the entrance to Scotland Green. There is no way I would have seen any suspension sign as there was not one in view as I walked forward. There was no reason to look behind me or to check signs other than the large entrance sign in front of me as I have a parking permit which I know to be valid for this street. If the suspension begins from the corner of High Road and Scotland Green then there should be a sign on that post at the entrance to the street. Please refer to my pictures submitted as evidence which show the view that I saw from the car on exiting and walking forwards (albeit these photos are taken in daylight and it was dark when I parked). Therefore signage is inadequate and does not follow The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, Regulation 18 which states in Part (1) (a) "that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road". The PCN is invalid. I request that it be cancelled.


Yours sincerely,

XXXXXXX
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 24 Aug 2019 - 15:19
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Go back to the Taxi stopping order:-

http://bit.ly/31Cg4w3


Look at what it says concerning the Event Day Restriction Hours:-- 5pm until 8.30pm


I would keep everything as simple as possible:-

My vehicle was parked in Scotland Green on a match day and a PCN was served on the basis that a parking suspension was in force.

I understand that such parkings suspensions derive from a Traffic Management Order (TMO) specific to the parking place. The TMO for Scotland Green is The Haringey (Tottenham Hotspur Stadium Event Days) (Taxi Stopping Areas) (No. 1) Experimental Traffic Order 2019


This TMO specifically states that the Event Day Restriction Hours are between 5pm and 8.30pm on a weekday. I contend therefore that a suspension sign which gives different times is both incorrect and invalid and cannot be used to enforce an alleged contravention at 11 am in the morning.

Furthermore the suspension sign is invalid because the TMO does not allow a change of use for the bays in Scotland Green for coaches. This TMO is exclusive to taxis and only during what the TMO describes as "prescribed hours" which are 5pm and 8.30pm on a weekday. So the Council will understand that even taxis cannot use this temporary "stand" until 5pm which rather serves to illustrate that the service of a PCN at 11am is wholly unreasonable and without legal standing.

I would add that a suspension sign authorised by DfT is a valid traffic sign and that the Council, under Regulation 18 LATOR 1996, has a duty to ensure that it complies with the terms of the specific TMO. The Council has failed in that duty as evidenced above.

Given these grounds I would ask the Council to cancel the PCN with immediate effect.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 - 15:56
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titeyorkshire
post Sat, 24 Aug 2019 - 16:41
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Wow thanks very much. I think I was trying way too hard to sound legal. Yours makes sense even to me! Thanks a lot, I will use that and all I have to do is change to the actual time of the PCN which I think was 11:42. I will check. Many thanks.
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cp8759
post Mon, 26 Aug 2019 - 01:53
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The taxi order was not in force at 11 am so it's irrelevant. That being the case, we need to look at the suspension powers in the principal order, which I have now asked for. If we run out of time (the deadline is midnight on 29 August) send Mick's draft, but if we can get the order that was actually in force at the material time that would be a lot better.


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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 26 Aug 2019 - 10:26
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@cp8759
Yes and no.

We are dealing with designated match day bays under specific TROs which means the Council do not require any notice for posting a suspension sign. I doubt whether they would adhere to the normal time scales if this suspension was effected under the principal order.

In other words the Council cannot escape its match day regulations by sticking up a normal suspension sign. I think this even precludes the catch all statement in match day TROs that someone in authority can modify arrangements since an extra coach bay in this spot would be an "addition".

Second, the times given on the suspension sign make it invalid because they encroach onto the match day taxi bay times anyway, regardless of when the OP parked.

As you said earlier they have c*cked up the coach and taxi TROs and I cannot see they have much wriggle room.

I meant to explain to the OP earlier that this case is not clear cut and liable to get messy. That seems to be the case.

Mick


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cp8759
post Thu, 29 Aug 2019 - 13:05
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Just in case the council reject, I've got hold of

The Haringey (Tottenham CPZs) (Designations) Order 2015 http://bit.ly/2ZzIeGG
The Haringey (Tottenham CPZs) (Section 6) Order 2015 http://bit.ly/2Zt982U

The Designations order has some provisions for the suspension of bays, but none that relate to a change of use. Therefore if the principal orders were the ones in force at the time, the suspension was ultra-vires and at the time of the alleged contravention, no lawful suspension was in force.

If the taxi order was the one in force, the suspension is unlawful for the reasons already explained above.


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titeyorkshire
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 21:01
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Hello, Please can i ask for your help again. Haringey sent a notice of rejection of representations dated 11/10/19 (no surprises) after i used Mad Micks draft. Please see below images. I would really appreciate some direction as to how i go about what will be my first London Tribunals Appeal. I go away on holiday on the 22nd of this month and would really like to have this appeal submitted before then. Many thanks for your help.

















This post has been edited by titeyorkshire: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 21:10
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cp8759
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 15:57
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Well as there's no discount on offer it's a no brainier to appeal. Here's a draft, keep all bold and italics exactly as I have used it below (just put your appeal in a Word document and export it as a PDF, then upload to the tribunal website), also you must upload all the Traffic Orders to the tribunal website, they're in posts 22 and 33 above.

----------

Ground 1: The alleged contravention did not occur:

The suspension of the bay was signed as being in force from 8 am to 8 pm, it can be implied from the sign that the purpose of a suspension that the intention of the council is to re-designate the bays as coach parking bays. There is a large number of problems with the council's position:

Firstly, it is not at all clear that it is lawful to use a parking suspension for the purpose of changing the use of a parking bay. Ordinarily the change of use of a designated parking bay would be effected by means of a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order.

Confusingly, a number of TTROs have been made that are relevant but none appear to have been in force at the material time. There wording on the suspension sign appears to be taken from The Haringey (Tottenham Hotspur Stadium Event Days) (Taxi Stopping Areas) (No. 1) Experimental Traffic Order 2019, but that order creates taxi stopping areas rather than coach bays, and that order is only in force during the "Event Day Restriction Hours" which the order defines in the following terms:

"Event Day restriction hours" means the period between the hours of 5 p.m. and
8.30 p.m. on Mondays to Fridays inclusive such day being a major event day, or
the period between the hours of 12 noon and 8 p.m. on a Saturday, Sunday or a
Public Holiday such day being a major event day
"

There is an order that creates coach parking places, that being The Haringey (Tottenham Hotspur Stadium Event Days) (Bus Parking Places) (No. 1) Experimental Traffic Order 2019, however that order was also not in force as it follows the same definition of "Event Day Restriction Hours", and it does not cover Scotland Green in any event.

It follows that the Traffic Management Order that was in force at the materiel time is The Haringey (Tottenham CPZs) (Designations) Order 2015 which includes the following suspension power at Article 8, but that power only permits a suspension for the following purposes:

(a) for the purpose of facilitating the movement of traffic or promoting its safety;
(b) for the purpose of any building operation, demolition or excavation adjacent to the permit parking
place, the maintenance, improvement or reconstruction of the highway or the cleansing of gullies
in or adjacent to the permit parking place, the laying, erection, alteration or repair in or adjacent
to the permit parking place of any sewer or of any main, pipe or apparatus for the supply of gas,
water or electricity or of any telecommunication system or the placing, maintenance or removal
of any traffic sign;
(с) for the convenience of occupiers of premises adjacent to the permit parking place on any
occasion of the removal of furniture to or from one office or dwelling-house adjacent to the
permit parking place from or to a depository, another office or dwelling-house;
(d) on any occasion when it is likely by reason of some special attraction that any street will be
thronged or obstructed; or
(e) for the convenience of occupiers of premises adjacent to the permit parking place at times of
weddings or funerals, or on any other special occasions.


It therefore does not appear the council has a power to suspend a bay for the purpose of permitting coach parking instead, indeed this is no doubt why the council recognised the need to create a set of Temporary Traffic Regulations Orders under section 14(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. However as there is no TTRO that was in force at the time of the alleged contravention, and the purported suspension was ultra-vires as it was outside the scope of the suspension powers provided in the 2015 order, quite plainly the alleged contravention did not occur.

Ground 1: There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority:

The formal representations submitted to the enforcement authority, although less extensive, were focused on the fact that the parking suspension was legally defective, due to the TTRO not being in force at 11 am in the morning, and the TTRO for Scotland Green making no provisions for coach parking. These points have not been acknowledged, let alone dealt with, in the respondent's Notice of Rejection. Indeed, the author of the rejection appears to have assumed the suspension was lawfully made and there is no indication that the council has at any stage actually considered whether the suspension was lawfully in force, the council appears to be oblivious to the fact that the lawfulness of the suspension is disputed.

This failure to consider a central point of the representations made is a clear procedural impropriety, contrary to the requirements of regulation 5 of The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007.

It follows that the appeal should be allowed and the respondent should be directed to chancel the penalty charge.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 13:19


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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 16:24
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+1 (Nice work CP)

None of the Orders apply so the contravention cannot be enforced.

I forsee either a DNC (Do Not Contest) or an adjudicator ruling on the failure to
consider point.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 16:25
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