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FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ sending off license, going abroad car hire

Posted by: anth85 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:00
Post #1344665

I had a speeding offence a few months ago, first set of 3 points in 10 years. I went online and paid the fine as per the paperwork and thought that was the end of it. I got a letter through the post this morning (Saturday) saying they had received payment but i still needed to post my license off (newer card style), within 7 days or I will be taken to court. Normally this would be fine, however I go to Florida on Wednesday morning and need my license for the car hire I have booked. I am now panicking that I have the choice of losing the car hire and £400 to book it, or go to court. I can't even ring the department that sent the letter because it's the weekend. Which is why I am posting on here, can anyone advise what will happen?

Posted by: Jlc Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:03
Post #1344666

What was the speed and limit?

Posted by: anth85 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:09
Post #1344669

50/58 if i remember rightly, might have been 57.

Posted by: NewJudge Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:26
Post #1344672

If a phone call does not secure you an extension to send in your licence (and this may well depend on when the offence was) I think your only option will be to opt for a court appearance. You can ask the court to sentence you at the fixed penalty level instead of in accordance with the guidelines. They have the discretion to do this and their guidance suggests that they might where there are “reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties”. Unless anyone can think of anything else.

As an aside, in England and Wales that excess would normally qualify or the offer of a Speed Awareness Course unless you have done one in the last three years. Was such an offer made?

Posted by: squaredeal Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28
Post #1344673

Call them Monday and explain, as long as timescales permit they should allow submission immediately following your return from holiday (presumably just a couple of weeks?)

Posted by: Jlc Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28
Post #1344674

Ok, if you do not provide your licence then the matter will go to court. At that excess it is still 3 points but the fine will be income related (around 1/3 weekly post deduction earnings) along with costs (£85) and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).

That said, the court can sentence at a fixed penalty level without costs but the surcharge won't be avoided. They may not agree your circumstances are sufficient but are unconnected with the offence itself.

It doesn't seem likely now to get the licence there and back even with special delivery. Although, it is worth speaking to them on Monday. But the conditions of the offer are clear.

Posted by: NewJudge Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:31
Post #1344676

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28) *
That said, the court can sentence at a fixed penalty level without costs but the surcharge won't be avoided.


Most courts will impose a fine of £70 with a £30 surcharge, Jlc.

Posted by: anth85 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32
Post #1344678

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:26) *
If a phone call does not secure you an extension to send in your licence (and this may well depend on when the offence was) I think your only option will be to opt for a court appearance. You can ask the court to sentence you at the fixed penalty level instead of in accordance with the guidelines. They have the discretion to do this and their guidance suggests that they might where there are “reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties”. Unless anyone can think of anything else.

As an aside, in England and Wales that excess would normally qualify or the offer of a Speed Awareness Course unless you have done one in the last three years. Was such an offer made?


Thanks, I'll be making the phone call first thing monday morning, there is just two sleepless nights between now and then.

I have done the course in August 2013. It will be less than 3 years between that and the time i was caught but more than 3 years by the time the NIP came through. There was an issue in that i hadn't told the DVLA i have moved via the V5, I presumed changing my license was enough. It was about a year between being caught and the NIP coming to me current address so I wasnt going to argue about doing the course.



Posted by: baggins1234 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32
Post #1344679

How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?


Posted by: anth85 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37
Post #1344680

QUOTE (squaredeal @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:28) *
Call them Monday and explain, as long as timescales permit they should allow submission immediately following your return from holiday (presumably just a couple of weeks?)


leave wednesday 10th, land back early 25th, its an overnight return flight. So they would get it by friday the 26th.

I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect


QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32) *
How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?


that's a good idea, but what happens if i get pulled over or have an accident while driving after i've posted it back? It didn't happen last time but that doesn't mean it won't happen this time.

Posted by: baggins1234 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:40
Post #1344681

QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32) *
How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?


that's a good idea, but what happens if i get pulled over or have an accident while driving after i've posted it back? It didn't happen last time but that doesn't mean it won't happen this time.



Look up the laws in the states you’re going to and see what it says about having to carry your original licence?
You could photocopy it?
Don’t forget to get your DVLA check codes printed off to take with you

Posted by: NewJudge Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49
Post #1344684

QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect

They need it to confirm your identity and to ensure they are adding the points to the correct driving record.

You are quite right to keep your licence with you whilst abroad. Could cause all sorts of difficulties in the event of a pull or an accident if you do not have it.

The time issue is critical. The authorities have six months from the date of the offence to commence court proceedings. There is usually a cut-off of around four months from the offence date when course or fixed penalty offers will lapse. This is to allow court proceedings to be instigated if you decline the offers. What is the offence date?


Posted by: anth85 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:53
Post #1344685

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49) *
The time issue is critical. The authorities have six months from the date of the offence to commence court proceedings. There is usually a cut-off of around four months from the offence date when course or fixed penalty offers will lapse. This is to allow court proceedings to be instigated if you decline the offers. What is the offence date?


to be honest, i cant find the form, nor can i find the email confirmation of payment. I put a post on here when it came through asking what to do. That says the offence was june 2017. I will have paid the fine around mid Oct 2017 as that was shortly after I posted on here and was told what to do.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:56
Post #1344687

QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:40) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:32) *
How about, if nothing else works out, taking your licence to the USA.

Get your car hired, then post it back airmail to the UK to be processed?


that's a good idea, but what happens if i get pulled over or have an accident while driving after i've posted it back? It didn't happen last time but that doesn't mean it won't happen this time.



Look up the laws in the states you’re going to and see what it says about having to carry your original licence?
You could photocopy it?
Don’t forget to get your DVLA check codes printed off to take with you

My understanding is that the Geneva Convention requires you to have you licence with you, and for good reason.
Putting it another way, how do you think plod would react here if a tourists got pulled over and said "oh yes I have a licence, it's in the US / Peru / Australia / whatever, but here's a black and white photocopy".

Posted by: NewJudge Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:00
Post #1344689

If it was in June you can simply fail to send in your licence. Having not complied with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer - which include paying the £100 and sending in your licence they should refund your £100 and instigate court proceedings which er...they can't. You might remind them of this when you negotiate the extension to send in your licence

Posted by: anth85 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14
Post #1344692

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:00) *
If it was in June you can simply fail to send in your licence. Having not complied with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer - which include paying the £100 and sending in your licence they should refund your £100 and instigate court proceedings which er...they can't. You might remind them of this when you negotiate the extension to send in your licence


Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?

Posted by: Jlc Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:30
Post #1344693

QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:00) *
If it was in June you can simply fail to send in your licence. Having not complied with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer - which include paying the £100 and sending in your licence they should refund your £100 and instigate court proceedings which er...they can't. You might remind them of this when you negotiate the extension to send in your licence


Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?

The 6 month limit is just that. However, other offences can be committed such as failing to furnish driver details - but you appear to be past that stage. (Although, the offence may well have occurred)

Posted by: NewJudge Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:33
Post #1344696

QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14) *
Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?

It was their fault for not ensuring that either (a) you fully complied with the Fixed Penalty offer or (b) they instigated proceedings in time.

If it was me I'd say that I will fully comply with the offer (by submitting my licence) as soon as I return from the USA. It would be interesting to hear the view of others on here, though. You could, of course, ask for your £100 back though I wouldn't recommend it. You may face a charge of failing to change your address on the V5C. I believe this has to be instigated by the DVLA and without looking it up I'm not sure if it is also subject to the "six-month" rule. It carries no points, though.

EDIT: And it is worth considering the "Fail to Furnish" offence. That is not committed until 28 days after the request for information is served on you, so that may still well be liable to prosecution. But since you have provided your details and they have been accepted in order to progress the matter, it would be unjust to consider a prosecution for that now. But I would "play it fair" by offering to send in your licence as soon as you return and that should avoid any "unpleasantness."

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:36
Post #1344697

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:33) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:14) *
Even though it was my fault for not changing the address the car is registered at with the DVLA when I moved?

It was their fault for not ensuring that either (a) you fully complied with the Fixed Penalty offer or (b) they instigated proceedings in time.

If it was me I'd say that I will fully comply with the offer (by submitting my licence) as soon as I return from the USA. It would be interested to hear the view of others on here, though. Off course you may face a charge of failing to change your address on the V5C. I believe this has to be instigated by the DVLA and without looking it up I'm not sure if it is also subject to the "six-month" rule.

If the matter is actually out of time, I'd just ignore them, there's nothing they can do. And I'd chase them for the £100 refund.

Posted by: baggins1234 Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 22:36
Post #1344698

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
My understanding is that the Geneva Convention requires you to have you licence with you, and for good reason.


Which is why I gave exactly the advice that I did.


QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:56) *
here's a black and white photocopy[/i]".


Colour photocopy would be much clearer..... blink.gif

Posted by: nigelbb Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 07:57
Post #1344718

QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect

They need it to confirm your identity and to ensure they are adding the points to the correct driving record.

I don't see why this should be necessary when they don't ask you to produce your licence if you appear in court are found guilty & have points awarded.

Posted by: squaredeal Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 08:54
Post #1344723

QUOTE (nigelbb @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 08:57) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect

They need it to confirm your identity and to ensure they are adding the points to the correct driving record.

I don't see why this should be necessary when they don't ask you to produce your licence if you appear in court are found guilty & have points awarded.

HMCTS are lobbying hard to get the law changed to enable remote endorsement, as it will save them millions, however until this happens, it's the law.

Posted by: Churchmouse Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 10:12
Post #1344746

QUOTE (squaredeal @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 08:54) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 08:57) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect

They need it to confirm your identity and to ensure they are adding the points to the correct driving record.

I don't see why this should be necessary when they don't ask you to produce your licence if you appear in court are found guilty & have points awarded.

HMCTS are lobbying hard to get the law changed to enable remote endorsement, as it will save them millions, however until this happens, it's the law.

That sounds much more likely: The law has simply not been updated since the paper points era, and there is currently no logical reason for the requirement.

FWIW, the police (and everyone else) in the US will expect you to have your driving license (note spelling) with you whilst driving (and everywhere else--it is their primary source of picture ID). The idea that you can legally drive around in any modern country without it will astound and amuse the natives to no end.

--Churchmouse

Posted by: NewJudge Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 10:25
Post #1344750

QUOTE (nigelbb @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 07:57) *
I don't see why this should be necessary when they don't ask you to produce your licence if you appear in court are found guilty & have points awarded.

A defendant is asked for his licence following conviction in court. If he does not produce it he is told to send it to the DVLA.



Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 15:37
Post #1344855

QUOTE (squaredeal @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 08:54) *
QUOTE (nigelbb @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 08:57) *
QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (anth85 @ Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 21:37) *
I am still unclear why they need my photocard license? it's not like a paper license where there points were physically wrote on is it? I'd have thought the driver number would be enough then it be saved on a central database similar to a cars MOT/insurance ect

They need it to confirm your identity and to ensure they are adding the points to the correct driving record.

I don't see why this should be necessary when they don't ask you to produce your licence if you appear in court are found guilty & have points awarded.

HMCTS are lobbying hard to get the law changed to enable remote endorsement, as it will save them millions, however until this happens, it's the law.

That's interesting, could you provide your source? I'm not questioning what you're saying, I'm just curious as to how they plan to avoid fraud.

Posted by: Youngdand Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:30
Post #1345148

Hi, though not ideal, you could apply for an international driving permit from the post office, for which they require sight of your original license to issue, take both with you to hire the car, and then post back the photo card, whilst keeping the international permit and a copy of your original license.

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/international-driving-permit

Some hire companies require one at any rate.

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:04
Post #1345174

QUOTE (Youngdand @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:30) *
Hi, though not ideal, you could apply for an international driving permit from the post office, for which they require sight of your original license to issue, take both with you to hire the car, and then post back the photo card, whilst keeping the international permit and a copy of your original license.

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/international-driving-permit

Some hire companies require one at any rate.

The international permit is invalid without the original licence. Whether an American cop would know that (or know of the Geneva convention) is a different matter.

Posted by: anth85 Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:08
Post #1345176

Thanks for all the posts guys, after getting passed from pillar to post this morning. I eventually ended up back and the same place i called originally, they have put a note on the file that I am away and that I have been advised I can post it off on my return, which I will do. I knew there was advise to fight it, but with me screwing up twice, once not informing the dvla of the vehicle change of address and secondly not sending the license off in the first place, I figured I would lose any fight so take the penalty and don't do it again.

Posted by: Jlc Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:23
Post #1345184

There won't be a fight it you're outside the statutory limit.

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:19
Post #1345203

QUOTE (Youngdand @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 14:04) *
QUOTE (Youngdand @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:30) *
Hi, though not ideal, you could apply for an international driving permit from the post office, for which they require sight of your original license to issue, take both with you to hire the car, and then post back the photo card, whilst keeping the international permit and a copy of your original license.

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/international-driving-permit

Some hire companies require one at any rate.

The international permit is invalid without the original licence. Whether an American cop would know that (or know of the Geneva convention) is a different matter.


Though its academic now, he could have claimed to have lost it, as he clearly had it in order to hire the vehicle and would be able to show this, and having a copy could just be bundled with all other holiday paperwork. the likelyhood of requiring it after the car hire is probably slim anyhow.

Dan.

The problem would always be that if your stopped by the police, there are countries / states where failing to produce a licence on demand is an offence in itself.

Posted by: Fredd Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:39
Post #1345208

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:19) *
The problem would always be that if your stopped by the police, there are countries / states where failing to produce a licence on demand is an offence in itself.


Also we don't do this kind of thing here:
QUOTE (Youngdand @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:14) *
Though its academic now, he could have claimed to have lost it,

Posted by: southpaw82 Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 18:32
Post #1345267

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:19) *
The problem would always be that if your stopped by the police, there are countries / states where failing to produce a licence on demand is an offence in itself.

Such as the UK?

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 18:45
Post #1345272

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 18:32) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 15:19) *
The problem would always be that if your stopped by the police, there are countries / states where failing to produce a licence on demand is an offence in itself.

Such as the UK?

I was referring to countries that don't have a 7 day period when you can produce your licence at a police station penalty free

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