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Discrepancy between limits and average speeds in South Gloucestershire.
ajuk
post Sun, 11 Nov 2018 - 22:08
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Even with my understanding of speed limits I was quite shocked, Heron Way and Shire Way are in the same estate and I had filed the FOI request thinking that Heron Way would have the higher average speed but I suspected at the time it wouldn't be much faster, I don't think I've ever laughed at the result of an FOI request result before. After that, I submitted some more requests and put them into this spreadsheet. It pretty much corresponds with how you would expect it to be if the findings of the US study the Effects Of Raising And Lowering Speed limits were also true here.
Unfortunately, levels of compliance weren't provided in most of the results but apparently, it was 97% on Bristol Road Frampton Cotterell, that was before they lowered it wacko.gif .

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post Sun, 11 Nov 2018 - 22:08
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Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 08:00
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Just like here it shows that many drivers seem unable to read.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 14:51
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Be interesting to understand why Great Stoke way sees such speeds!


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DancingDad
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 15:16
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Gotta admit I find nothing too strange about those readings.
Point is that people drive to what they think is safe as much as the posted limits.
Not talking about lunatic speeders, just Joe Average who treats limits more of an advisory and doesn't worry about cameras unless they are obvious.
I don't know the roads but would hazard a guess that those with lower average/85% speeds are narrower, twistier or more obstructed then those with higher.
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Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:36
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Ok so they can read but consider themselves more important than the people who live there.
Sad to see so much disrespect from such average joe drivers.

This post has been edited by Charlie1010: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:37
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Churchmouse
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:15
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:36) *
Ok so they can read but consider themselves more important than the people who live there.
Sad to see so much disrespect from such average joe drivers.

Is this some sort of Millennial concept of "respect", in which a driver's sense of safety and personal responsibility is subordinated to the finely groomed feelings of local residents? I live between two stretches of fairly identical highways, one being a 30 limit and the other 40. Most drivers seem to treat them the same, and the police rarely enforce the 30. That road is, in my view, equally safe at 40 as it is 30. I tut about the speeders occasionally, but I can't say that I feel "disrespected".

--Churchmouse
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:17
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:15) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:36) *
Ok so they can read but consider themselves more important than the people who live there.
Sad to see so much disrespect from such average joe drivers.

Is this some sort of Millennial concept of "respect", in which a driver's sense of safety and personal responsibility is subordinated to the finely groomed feelings of local residents? I live between two stretches of fairly identical highways, one being a 30 limit and the other 40. Most drivers seem to treat them the same, and the police rarely enforce the 30. That road is, in my view, equally safe at 40 as it is 30. I tut about the speeders occasionally, but I can't say that I feel "disrespected".

--Churchmouse

I would ask the highways authority why they don't increase the 30 limit to 40.


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The Slithy Tove
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:27
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:17) *
I would ask the highways authority why they don't increase the 30 limit to 40.

But you know what they'll do, don't you? They'll reduce the 40 to a 30.
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Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:52
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Subordinated? Millennial? No, limits have been here for a long time.
I thought speed limits were there for safety and it is the personal responsibility of a decent driver to obey them.
It was a 40 but after two deaths and the lollipop lady being run over, it was reduced to 30.
The primary school got a zebra crossing put in but I’ve been overtaken by a van and a Porsche whilst waiting at it. Both just missed people crossing by inches.
So yes. Respecting other people is a big part of driving.
Now there is a heavy police presence at school times and several drivers have already been charged.

In Europe where I drive a lot there is no excuse for breaking the limit. They don’t have bright orange cameras and in Germany many cameras and limits are there for noise reduction purposes. So ‘safety’ doesn’t just refer to what a driver thinks is safe but it is about being able to live together respecting each other.
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ajuk
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:00
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 08:00) *
Just like here it shows that many drivers seem unable to read.


A bit like the councillors when it comes to the DfT guidelines? laugh.gif

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 14:51) *
Be interesting to understand why Great Stoke way sees such speeds!


Look at it on Streetview.

QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:36) *
Ok so they can read but consider themselves more important than the people who live there.
Sad to see so much disrespect from such average joe drivers.


So, what's going on on the roads where the compliance is much higher then? blink.gif
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ajuk
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:12
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:52) *
Subordinated? Millennial? No, limits have been here for a long time.
I thought speed limits were there for safety and it is the personal responsibility of a decent driver to obey them.
It was a 40 but after two deaths and the lollipop lady being run over, it was reduced to 30.
The primary school got a zebra crossing put in but I’ve been overtaken by a van and a Porsche whilst waiting at it. Both just missed people crossing by inches.
So yes. Respecting other people is a big part of driving.
Now there is a heavy police presence at school times and several drivers have already been charged.

In Europe where I drive a lot there is no excuse for breaking the limit. They don’t have bright orange cameras and in Germany many cameras and limits are there for noise reduction purposes. So ‘safety’ doesn’t just refer to what a driver thinks is safe but it is about being able to live together respecting each other.


I think you should read that study that I mentioned they spent a long time raising and lowering speed limits by as much as 20mph doing either did little to alter traffic speeds, they also concluded that speed limits that do not match the road standard and engineering are in of itself a key factor in what is increasingly causing motorist to disrespect speed limits, especially when it's done in the false belief that people who speed only will drive X over the posted speed limit, and councilours openly admit this.
That said even in a county such as this with some really quite mental speed limits in places (not on this chart) and astounding levels of non-uniformity, roads with seemingly generous speed limits continue to have higher levels of compliance, but not higher actual speeds.
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Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:26
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It still doesn’t account for the fact that people ignore the signs.
Big ones in red circles.
We are not animals so don’t have to act on instinct.
I did not think I can add any more. It’s obvious the standard of driving is far worse than it used to be with many drivers thinking they have a right not to be ‘subordinated’ by the areas they drive through. Even the the limit is there because of it. Etcetera etcetera etcetera.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 22:28
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The standard of driving, at least as far as speed limits are concerned is probably better then it ever has been.
I will openly admit that in my younger days, I treated speed limit signs as guidance and frequently ignored them.
Chances of being stopped for speeding was approaching nil and we knew it.
Cured with a couple of speeding tickets (cameras) and the preponderance of cameras about.
I am by no means alone in that I tend to take a lot more notice these days.
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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 23:47
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I agree compliance is higher now than ever before. Just think that there was a time where the enforcement threshold was 60 in a 40: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/road-s...0-years-on.html


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Churchmouse
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 10:47
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:52) *
Subordinated? Millennial? No, limits have been here for a long time.
I thought speed limits were there for safety and it is the personal responsibility of a decent driver to obey them.
It was a 40 but after two deaths and the lollipop lady being run over, it was reduced to 30.
The primary school got a zebra crossing put in but I’ve been overtaken by a van and a Porsche whilst waiting at it. Both just missed people crossing by inches.

What does this have to do with anything I or anyone else in this thread has written? Speed limits should reflect safety considerations, not the feelings of the residents.

--Churchmouse
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nigelbb
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 12:54
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:47) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:52) *
Subordinated? Millennial? No, limits have been here for a long time.
I thought speed limits were there for safety and it is the personal responsibility of a decent driver to obey them.
It was a 40 but after two deaths and the lollipop lady being run over, it was reduced to 30.
The primary school got a zebra crossing put in but I’ve been overtaken by a van and a Porsche whilst waiting at it. Both just missed people crossing by inches.

What does this have to do with anything I or anyone else in this thread has written? Speed limits should reflect safety considerations, not the feelings of the residents.

--Churchmouse

Why shouldn't the feelings of the residents be taken into account? Safety isn't the only reason for speed limits. Noise & environmental concerns amongst other also warrant consideration.


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Guest_Charlie1010_*
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 15:17
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‘What does this have to do with anything I or anyone else in this thread has written? Speed limits should reflect safety considerations, not the feelings of the residents.’

Well that sums it up really. Selfish and arrogance. That kind of attitude and behaviour is what needs changing.
The Highway Code is free to download.
Here is the bit you need.

‘The Highway Code is essential reading for everyone. The most vulnerable road users are pedestrians, particularly children, older or disabled people, cyclists, motorcyclists and horse riders. It is important that all road users are aware of The Highway Code and are considerate towards each other.’
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DancingDad
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 17:09
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 15:17) *
‘What does this have to do with anything I or anyone else in this thread has written? Speed limits should reflect safety considerations, not the feelings of the residents.’

Well that sums it up really. Selfish and arrogance. That kind of attitude and behaviour is what needs changing.
The Highway Code is free to download.
Here is the bit you need.

‘The Highway Code is essential reading for everyone. The most vulnerable road users are pedestrians, particularly children, older or disabled people, cyclists, motorcyclists and horse riders. It is important that all road users are aware of The Highway Code and are considerate towards each other.’



The important bit is that the speed limits should reflect both need and safety.
Which often they do not.
Around my area, virtually all residential roads are 30mph.
A few, by schools, have been dropped to 20mph. 24/7, 365 days a year, 20mph with wacking great speed bumps to ensure compliance.
Why?
The safety need for the teenage mobile phone zombies is only a couple of hours morning and evening, weekdays and only in term time.
What possible safety consideration does peeing off drivers have the rest of the time?
Similar, we have a main trunk road, part dual carriageway, part single, the single is relatively narrow in places, goes through residential areas.
Dual part is 40mph as are wider single carriageway parts. 30 otherwise.
Until you cross the border from Birmingham into Walsall. At the border it drops to 30, still the same wide road it was before but now 30 instead of 40.
Why?
Why is there a blanket (generally) 50mph limit through motorway roadworks.... to protect the workforce you cry, what effing workforce at 2 in the morning or on a Sunday ???
There are countless examples where speed limits are imposed for no rational reason beyond the loud cries that speed kills and protect the children.
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 23:56
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QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 15:17) *
‘What does this have to do with anything I or anyone else in this thread has written? Speed limits should reflect safety considerations, not the feelings of the residents.’

Well that sums it up really. Selfish and arrogance. That kind of attitude and behaviour is what needs changing.
The Highway Code is free to download.
Here is the bit you need.

‘The Highway Code is essential reading for everyone. The most vulnerable road users are pedestrians, particularly children, older or disabled people, cyclists, motorcyclists and horse riders. It is important that all road users are aware of The Highway Code and are considerate towards each other.’

First you go off on random drivers based solely on the statistics cited in the original post, launching into your "disrespect" rant, which is further developed in an incoherent reply to me, which included references to "two deaths and the lollipop lady being run over" and "The primary school got a zebra crossing put in but I’ve been overtaken by a van and a Porsche whilst waiting at it. Both just missed people crossing by inches. So yes. Respecting other people is a big part of driving."

What are you gibbering about? You sound like Vicky Pollard! None of that was in my or anyone else's comments in this thread--and your conclusion is a non sequitur. Speed limits are obviously about safety, not "respecting other people". (We're discussing speed limits in this thread, not the propriety of running over pedestrians.) The concerns of the community are properly taken into account when traffic measures are planned and implemented. If that's not good enough for you, you can lobby the authorities to get them changed or you will just need to learn that living in society means that your every petty concern is not necessarily shared by everyone else. Selfish and arrogant, indeed!

--Churchmouse
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ajuk
post Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 21:33
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 12:54) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 11:47) *
QUOTE (Charlie1010 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:52) *
Subordinated? Millennial? No, limits have been here for a long time.
I thought speed limits were there for safety and it is the personal responsibility of a decent driver to obey them.
It was a 40 but after two deaths and the lollipop lady being run over, it was reduced to 30.
The primary school got a zebra crossing put in but I’ve been overtaken by a van and a Porsche whilst waiting at it. Both just missed people crossing by inches.

What does this have to do with anything I or anyone else in this thread has written? Speed limits should reflect safety considerations, not the feelings of the residents.

--Churchmouse

Why shouldn't the feelings of the residents be taken into account? Safety isn't the only reason for speed limits. Noise & environmental concerns amongst other also warrant consideration.


Because most people don't understand speed limits and tend to think of them as a form of traffic calming, which they're not, the speed limit should be the absolute maximum speed achievable under ideal conditions, there to single out the small number of drivers who has complete disregard for their own and other people's safety, it shouldn't be some trivial speed comfortably achievable let alone something that's counter-intuitively slow. That's when you end up with non-compliance rates of over 90% and the speed limit is held in utter contempt, they're not taken seriously, as they should be and they become about as effective as not having a posted speed limit.
It's even been known for the average speed to rise when the speed limit has been lowered, I'm not trying to suggest that's the norm but it happens, the speed limit should not be a political decision based on peoples feelings because when you do that you end up with levels of discrepancy like the one about. Remember one road has 97% of drivers below the speed limit, another has the average speed 12mph over it, and they're only about a mile apart that's mental.

I bet most people campaigning for lower speed limits have ever heard of the 85th percentile and tend to massively overestimate the effect they will have on actual traffic speeds and or make the assumption that most drivers drive X amount under or over the posted speed limit. They don't realise the negative effect an incorrectly set speed limit can have on safety, while average speeds can go down a bit there tends to be a negative effect on driver compliance this is enormously detrimental to the police being able to concentrate on the kinds of drivers properly set speed limits are able to single out it also will make pedestrians more complacent as too many people think that you can just change some signs and magic is performed. At least in America, they at least tried to explain how they work. https://youtu.be/j5pzYoX1cTw

And don't even get me to started about setting the start of speed limits arbitrarily X distance away from where the road changes in character leaving villages without drops in speed limit where traffic enters them, that again is what you get when you do what people think will make them safer. It would be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.

This post has been edited by ajuk: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 - 21:52
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