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Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:38
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 2 Nov 2014 From: London Member No.: 73,952 |
Hey Guys,
Quick question I got asked by a friend who just got off the phone with me; He was driving down a road in London (possibly slightly above the 30 speed limit - 35mph-ish), slowed well before the upcoming pedestrian crossing and then stopped, man crossing with his pram and partner were both looking at him a fair bit and when he pulled away from the crossing possibly the partner or man wrote down the number plate. If they did write down the plate of the vehicle is there going to be anything to come of it? I told him I thought there was almost no chance that the Met Police would follow up something like that it seems like it was almost a non-event to me but then again I thought I'd ask here as you guys know more than me. Thanks CD This post has been edited by ConfusedDaze: Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:40 -------------------- Thanks CD |
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Sat, 3 Nov 2018 - 17:38
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Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 19:47
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Well, I’m going with the learned editors of Blackstone’s and other lawyers. Any witness can give their opinion as to speed, unless for some reason the court finds they were unable to form an opinion. There is no requirement per s 89(2) that the witnesses are professional witnesses. What weight the court gives to the opinion is a matter for the court.
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 23:17
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,356 Joined: 30 Jun 2008 From: Landan Member No.: 20,731 |
How would the police determine whether to offer a course or an FPN? It would be impossible to do that without an accurate speed measurement, so straight to court?
--Churchmouse |
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Sun, 4 Nov 2018 - 23:32
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
How would the police determine whether to offer a course or an FPN? It would be impossible to do that without an accurate speed measurement, so straight to court? --Churchmouse It would also be impossible to sentence. Where there's no accurate speed measurement, but there's video evidence from a non-home office approved device, the court can view the video and form its own opinion as to the likely speed and sentence accordingly. But in this case, on what basis would the court form the opinion that the accused was doing, say, 35 mph, rather than 31 or 45? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 06:12
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
How would that differ if they were convicted on the word of two police officers, which most certainly has happened?
The Police could decide what speed they believed was true and and follow process or take it to court regardless, that doesn’t change guilt or innocence. -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 10:03
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
"I formed an opinion that they were speeding before they stopped cos of the screech when they braked, smoke was coming off of the tyres and it was snaking all over the road" May not be firm evidence of 35 in a 30 limit but not something I think a court would dismiss out of hand. A witness can state that the tyres screeched, and smoke came off the tyres, but their opinion as to whether the vehicle was speeding would be irrelevant. Unless they were holding a timer and did a manual time and distance calculation at the time (assuming landmarks at known distances were present on the road), what facts could the witness put forward to support an assertion that the vehicle was speeding? ………. Disagree. There is a difference between a specific speed, which can only be ascertained with measurements and an opinion that the speed was excessive due to witnessed facts. I fully accept that a court will give more credence to an expert witness with a speed gun then myself with an opinion but would not expect the court to disregard my evidence entirely. Another example for you. Not so long ago, a young oik living nearby got a quad bike. Took to using our road (a quiet residential road) as a drag strip. Typical quad bike with overloud exhaust, could hear the engine screaming and count the gear changes, if not redlining it in each gear then close, into third well before needing to brake at the end of the road. In my non expert opinion, topping out the revs in second let alone third will be exceeding the 30mph speed limit and that is something that could easily be confirmed via manufacturer's data. If it had come to court, my opinion on revs and gear changes would be treated as evidence to be weighed, questioned, accepted or discounted but not disregarded. Never happened, we had quiet words and he has behaved since Having said all that, I very much doubt the police would attempt a speeding charge on that sort of evidence, dangerous or without due care charges would IMO be more likely and far more likely to see a conviction. |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 12:08
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,356 Joined: 30 Jun 2008 From: Landan Member No.: 20,731 |
How would that differ if they were convicted on the word of two police officers, which most certainly has happened? The Police could decide what speed they believed was true and and follow process or take it to court regardless, that doesn’t change guilt or innocence. Which would be rather unusual and could be subject to a substantial amount of questioning by the defence, which would in turn consume a disproportionate amount of police and court time to resolve. For that reason I doubt it would ever get out of the "too hard" pile, but you never know... --Churchmouse |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 13:14
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
How would that differ if they were convicted on the word of two police officers, which most certainly has happened? Scenario 1, charge is 60 in a 30: Defence: How were you able to say the vehicle was travelling at 60 mph in a 30 mph zone? PC Plod: I have been a police officer for XX years and I have been a roads policing officer for YY years. I have engaged in speed enforcement on more occasions than I can count. During each speed enforcement session I would observe vehicles and use a home office type approved device to obtain an accurate speed reading, as such I have become accustomed to observing moving traffic and I can relate the rate of travel of a vehicle to its likely speed. Although on this particular occasion I was off duty and did not have a speed measurement device, my experience as a roads policing officer lead me to form the opinion that the vehicle was moving at something between 75 and 85 miles per hour, I accept this is not as reliable as a measurement taken by an approved device, but I am nonetheless certain that the vehicle must have been travelling at no less than 60 miles per hour. Scenario 2, charge is 35 in a 30: Defence: How were you able to say the vehicle was travelling at 35 mph in a 30 mph zone? PC Plod: I have been a police officer for XX years and I have been a roads policing officer for YY years. I have engaged in speed enforcement on more occasions than I can count. During each speed enforcement session I would observe vehicles and use a home office type approved device to obtain an accurate speed reading, as such I have become accustomed to observing moving traffic and I can relate the rate of travel of a vehicle to its likely speed. Although on this particular occasion I was off duty and did not have a speed measurement device, my experience as a roads policing officer lead me to form the opinion that the vehicle was moving at 35 miles per hour. Defence: So when you estimate the speed of a vehicle before confirming its speed with an approved device, is your estimate never out by more than 5 miles per hour? PC Plod: That's not what I said Defence:: So is it possible that the vehicle was actually doing 29.99 miles per hour? Can you be absolutely certain it was travelling at more than 29.99 miles per hour? PC Plod: I think it was doing 35 Defence:: But you cannot be certain? ...awkward silence... -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 19:00
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 21 Apr 2016 Member No.: 83,881 |
How would that differ if they were convicted on the word of two police officers, which most certainly has happened? Scenario 1, charge is 60 in a 30: Scenario 2, charge is 35 in a 30: Are you speaking from experience or just having a hypothetical guess? -------------------- If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 19:38
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
How would that differ if they were convicted on the word of two police officers, which most certainly has happened? Scenario 1, charge is 60 in a 30: Scenario 2, charge is 35 in a 30: Are you speaking from experience or just having a hypothetical guess? I can speak from experience to say that the CPS would not allow scenario 2 to go to court in the first place (evidential test not met), and I was illustrating why they would take that view. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 19:45
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,140 Joined: 19 Jun 2004 From: Surrey Member No.: 1,326 |
Well, I’m going with the learned editors of Blackstone’s and other lawyers. Any witness can give their opinion as to speed, unless for some reason the court finds they were unable to form an opinion. There is no requirement per s 89(2) that the witnesses are professional witnesses. What weight the court gives to the opinion is a matter for the court. Is it likely they would have to testify in Court, or would written testimony be sufficient? |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 19:45
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
I can speak from experience to say that the CPS would not allow scenario 2 to go to court in the first place (evidential test not met), and I was illustrating why they would take that view. That’s a given. However, why would scenario 1 be any different if the witnesses were not police officers? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 19:58
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I can speak from experience to say that the CPS would not allow scenario 2 to go to court in the first place (evidential test not met), and I was illustrating why they would take that view. That’s a given. However, why would scenario 1 be any different if the witnesses were not police officers? Well for one Mr Civvy cannot say "I have been a police officer for XX years and I have been a roads policing officer for YY years. I have engaged in speed enforcement on more occasions than I can count. During each speed enforcement session I would observe vehicles and use a home office type approved device to obtain an accurate speed reading, as such I have become accustomed to observing moving traffic and I can relate the rate of travel of a vehicle to its likely speed. Although on this particular occasion I was off duty and did not have a speed measurement device, my experience as a roads policing officer lead me to form the opinion...". Maybe someone who works for a company that makes or tests speed enforcement equipment would be able to cite relevant experience, but then that would make them a professional witness and not just a random member of the public. Also in scenario one you have other factors at play, such as time taken to travel between two landmarks (If you have independent witnesses saying it only took so many seconds to travel from point a to point b, say from a bus stop to a junction, you take the longest travel time any witness has mentioned, you do a time and distance calculation, halve the speed and the result is still way over the limit, you have a pretty strong case), engine noise, tyre screeching etc. that would allow a court to conclude the vehicle was speeding even absent opinion evidence to that effect. I take your point re: Blackstones and I will try and dig something up. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 20:03
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
would be able to cite relevant experience Do you not think that relevant experience of judging the speed of a vehicle is something most people pick up day to day, often by driving their own vehicle? Does it require any particular expertise to do? I don’t think anyone’s opinion is enough to tell the difference between 30 and 35 but most people can tell the difference between 30 and 60. The court might attach more weight to that of a person used to having their opinions verified by a mechanical device but that seems academic if the real question is “was the vehicle traveling in excess of 30mph?” and two witnesses say “it was doing 60”. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 21:51
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Its years ago, I witnessed an accident and stopped to offer ais, the police arrived and asked what I saw. I told them and gave the opinion that one of the vehicle was traveling at approx. 45mph. He told me they could not use my estimation of speed as I did not have the experience.to form an accurate view. This changed when they learnt I was a professional driver
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 22:43
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Its years ago, I witnessed an accident and stopped to offer ais, the police arrived and asked what I saw. I told them and gave the opinion that one of the vehicle was traveling at approx. 45mph. He told me they could not use my estimation of speed as I did not have the experience.to form an accurate view. This changed when they learnt I was a professional driver Police officers aren’t experts in the admissibility of evidence (a sub-species of never take legal advice from a copper). -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 23:10
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,356 Joined: 30 Jun 2008 From: Landan Member No.: 20,731 |
Well, the car was obviously not going so fast that the pedestrians felt uncomfortable stepping out in front of it with a pram...
--Churchmouse |
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Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 23:38
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 162 Joined: 2 Nov 2014 From: London Member No.: 73,952 |
Some interesting points there, I'm not sure I want to go back to him with anything more as I've already settled his mind and told him to calm down!!
He did say it was somewhere between 35-40mph(ish) and he slowed to 30 and stopped well before the crossing - I would have thought that didn't cross the threshold for DWDCA that someone mentioned above? If nothing else its been an interesting discussion that I've also learnt a lot from so that's pretty cool! From his first explanation they only started really looking at him whilst he was on the crossing, so until that point I doubt they had noted down anything and after that point he said he drove away at 30mph so nothing to see there. Also per another poster - was definitely a 30mph zone, I did ask him twice to make sure it wasn't one of these new 20s !!! -------------------- Thanks CD |
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Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 08:50
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Graham is a relevant case to take into consideration.
It adds a number of extra observations to the two police officers opinion, of course this appeal is on points of law and not the facts but it does tell us (most at least) the relevant facts the courts had when considering the evidence. This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 08:54 -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 16:49
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Its years ago, I witnessed an accident and stopped to offer ais, the police arrived and asked what I saw. I told them and gave the opinion that one of the vehicle was traveling at approx. 45mph. He told me they could not use my estimation of speed as I did not have the experience.to form an accurate view. This changed when they learnt I was a professional driver Police officers aren’t experts in the admissibility of evidence (a sub-species of never take legal advice from a copper). I was thinking more of what they would put to the CPS. But if you don't mind I'll take legal advice from a highly trained ex copper -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 6 Nov 2018 - 18:04
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
But if you don't mind I'll take legal advice from a highly trained ex copper I don't mind at all. Whether he's highly trained so as to give legal advice seems completely divorced from his former status as a police officer though. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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