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Debt recovery first letter received - advice please
helencooke01
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 07:20
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Hi, new to the forum and hoping someone might be able to give me some advice/guidance.

I’ve checked on the stickies and FAQs and can’t find anything that is 100% relevant to my situation.

I received a debt collection letter from Trace, acting on behalf of Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd. There was hardly any information in the letter but the main gist was that I owed PCM £160 and, as I had not responded to any previous correspondence, Trace were now pursuing this debt. I immediately phoned Trace as I had no idea where the parking infraction had occurred etc. as this was the first correspondence I had received.

Trace advised that PCM had sent me 2 letters, and they told me where the infraction had occurred and the times. I advised that I had not received the 2 letters from Trace but that I knew that my husband had parked in Whittle Square etc and I would therefore be willing to pay the initial £60 fine. Trace told me to email them this information and they would review and possibly allow me to pay the initial £60 fine. I emailed Trace the same day.

7 weeks after my email to Trace they replied and said they did not accept my explanation that I had not received the letters, and that I still owed the £160 and had 7 days to pay.

I haven’t paid the £160 and have since received a Letter before Claim from Gladstones on 4th October. I have submitted an appeal on their website and have received no response. I have also submitted an appeal on the IPC website which has been closed (despite PCM not responding adequately to my queries).

My question is – what should I do? Should I just give up and pay the £160? Or should I let Gladstones take it to court? PCM have admitted that they do not have proof of posting, they can only prove that they print the letters, but that they assume I have received them both.

I have plenty of further correspondence/information that I can post to this thread if anyone is able to assist?

Thanks

Helen
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post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 07:20
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 20:26
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Yes! Send a sar!
It cannot hurt or harm you and may help.

More knowledge is a good thing.
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helencooke01
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 12:08
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Thanks, I've done the SAR and sent it. I'll update once I've heard anything further.

Thanks all for the guidance and help, I really appreciate it.

Helen
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helencooke01
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 12:57
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Hi all

Resurrecting an old thread!
I have now received a Claim Form from the County Court.
I am intending to reply stating that I am prepared to pay part of the fine (the initial £60) as I did not receive the first 2 letters allegedly sent.

Does anyone have any guidance on completing the paperwork or is it as simple as filling it out honestly and sending back?

Many thanks

Helen
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ostell
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 13:33
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Did you get any response to your SAR?

Why not fight the whole lot? they have not complied with POFA and cannot hold the keeper liable.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 13:37
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helencooke01
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 14:19
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Hi there

Yes I did receive a reply to the SAR but there was nothing there that I thought would be of use.

Why have they not complied with POFA?

Thanks

Helen
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ostell
post Sat, 23 Feb 2019 - 20:29
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There was no notice to keeper? At the moment, as the keeper, you have no liability as they didn't deliver the NTK within the relevant period. That would be your defence. If there was a ticket on the windscreen then the NTK has to arrive between day 28 & 56. Without they have to get the notice to you within 14 days.

If they don't have a NTK, it should have been in the SAR response, then it's reasonable to assume they haven't seanything.

First of all just acknowledge the claim using the web page and password supplied on the form. Nothing in thecdefence. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to get a response to the court and decide what you want to do. You can always change your mind
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 12:32
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So in your sar, did it show there was a ntk?

Tell us the ISSUE DATE

Go online
Acknowledge the claim
Do NOT contest jurisdiction
Do NOt start your defence

This is a LEGAL PROCESS
You have to use legal arguments as to why you are not liable

Read and bookmark
MSE forum - newbies thread - post two
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helencooke01
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 13:37
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Yes in the SAR it showed that they sent 2x NTK. But I did not receive either of them, the first letter I received was from a debt collection company.

I'm not trying to deny the £60 claim or say I am not liable, I just refused to pay £160 (which has now gone up to £240). All the way through this process I have maintained that I did not receive either of the NTK's, but this apparently doesn't mean anything as I am now being taken to court dry.gif

Thanks, I'll go online and acknowledge the claim.

Helen
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cabbyman
post Sun, 24 Feb 2019 - 13:54
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You are trying to deny the £60 claim. If they don't comply with the precise requirements of the law, to the satisfaction of a court, nothing is due. This is the scam that they operate and you are trying not to get sucked into.


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 07:52
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If you did not recieve the NtK, then youhave no liability in law fotr the charge as only the DRIVER is responsible UNLESS they comply with POFA. ONE of the reuqirements of POFA2012 schedule 4 para 9 is to get a NtK to the keeper within 14 days

What is the ISSUE DATE? 2nd time of asking. there will not be a third.
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ostell
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 09:17
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Or make it easier for all and post up the NTK's Use an external site and link to here.

Was the address on the NTK's correct in all aspects?

Have you emailed the DVLA to find out who accessed your data and when? SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gov.uk Start date the date of the alleged breach till the date of the letter from the debt collector.
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helencooke01
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 13:15
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Thanks all, I will post up the information/details tomorrow.

Helen
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cabbyman
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 15:47
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The answer to the date of issue of the claim is very important and could have a bearing on advice given. PLEASE, I beg of you, what is the ISSUE date on the claim form??????


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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helencooke01
post Mon, 25 Feb 2019 - 19:47
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Cabbyman, I will post up all the info requested tomorrow. The paperwork pertaining to this is being kept at my parent's house - I have 2 small children and didn't want to risk it being shredded/eaten/flushed down the toilet/hidden. I have a couple of child-free hours tomorrow morning so will be able to provide all this info.

Thanks again, to everyone, for the help - I really do appreciate it.

Helen
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helencooke01
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 10:08
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Hi all

Here is the info requested:

Included in the SAR information are the 2x letters I did not receive - please see pictures below.
Parking infraction - 09/05/2018
Date of posting 1st notice - 14/05/18
Date of posting 2nd notice - 21/06/18





As well as photos of the car there is a small photo of the PCM parking signage:



Included in the SAR is a DVLA response which has a date of 14/05/18, is it worth me still checking this with the DVLA independently?

Regarding the Claim Form, the issue date is 20 Feb 19.
Link to the first page of the Claim Form:



Please let me know if there is anything else that I can post up that would be of use?

I am going to log onto the Money Claim website and acknowledge the claim as per the guidance from nosferatu1001.

Also - I mentioned last year that I had told PCM/Trace Debt Collection/Gladstones that I was not the driver. Nothing further has come of this and the claim is still directed to me. Is this correct or have they slipped up?

Thanks

Helen

This post has been edited by helencooke01: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 10:22
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 10:13
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You've left the password on
ANYONE can now go online and plead on YOUR claim! For example, they can state they admit it all in full...

Once aknowledged you have 33 days from 20.02.2019 to get the defence TO the court. You will NOT get ANY reminders on this.

There is a law called POFA2012 which allows them to hold the KEEPER liable, IF and ONLY IF they follow the requirements of it.
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helencooke01
post Tue, 26 Feb 2019 - 10:48
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Thanks, I've acknowledged the claim and changed the screenshot so the password is redacted.
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helencooke01
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 16:48
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Hi all

Is anyone able to help with the info I posted yesterday?

Thanks

Helen
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 16:52
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Yes
Youve been told to get a defence going
Obvious start is
MSE forum -> Parking subforum -> Newbies thread, post 2. READ, READ, BOOKMARK and READ it again. It gives an example defence

Have you donie as told, and found out about POFA?

Get a SAR to the parking company, today. You want EVERYTHING they have. No, dont argue, no dont delay or quibble. Just get it done.
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helencooke01
post Wed, 27 Feb 2019 - 20:52
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Thanks, I have looked into POFA and believe they have followed the legislation correctly.
I can also see that it's irrelevant that I didn't receive either of the 2x NTKs as there doesn't seem to be any onus on PCM to even prove they were sent.

I have already sent a SAR to PCM and included some of the details in one of my previous posts.

I have looked on MSE and there are a number of cases identical to mine, in the same location (Whittle Square - Gloucester). I've read these and am going to use them as the basis as my defence (which I will post when I have had a chance to write).

I have a couple of quick questions as to some issues that I wonder if I can use in my defence?
1 - the photos submitted by PCM cover a time frame of 15 seconds (between 17:36:49 - 17:37:04) yet the 'Contravention Time' listed on their paperwork is 17:45. Can I point out that the driver could have legitimately pulled over to read the signage for 15 seconds before leaving the area? There is no proof that the driver was still in the location at 17:45
2 - the signage has clearly changed since the photos taken by PCM. There are different, and additional, signs in place. Can I point this out as being an acknowledgement from PCM that the signage in place at the time of the contravention was not adequate?
3 - the area that was parked in is still used, every day, by multiple cars. Would it help my case to build up a dossier of photos of other cars parked in the location to make an assertion that PCM are deliberately 'baiting' people into parking here to generate money?

Thanks

Helen
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