PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN + Car Towed / Suspended Bay, PCN + Car Towed / Suspended Bay
Belsizeparkresid...
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 11:39
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



Hi

I have a residents parking permit which enables me to park my car in any residents parking bay within my zone.

I don't use my car day to day - and last used my car on Tuesday 12th. On Friday 15th, I went to use my car, only to find that it had been towed away the day before. I had to pay £305 to get my car released.

I have since found out that a number of spaces had been suspended for one day only (for domestic removal).

I am not sure when the temporary sign was put up - and could in theory have been put up after I left my car there.

Assuming the sign has been there for a sufficient length of time, the sign was on a lamppost that was around 70 ft away from my car (the complete other end of the bay to where my car was parked) so could have missed this.

As this is the street where I live and where I am entitled to park my car every day, I did not go around checking signs on the Tuesday 12th at 11pm when I parked my car there. It seems unreasonable and unfair that I should be checking daily for potential signs to go up.

I have uploaded the picture of the temporary sign and the positioning of my car (it is the black min...which is around 5 car spaces away from the sign).

£305 seems disproportionate and unreasonable given that I left my car where I am usually entitled to park it - and they suspended a number of spaces for 1 day.

Do I have any grounds to appeal?

Thanks

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 11:39
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 11:47
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



post all the documents you received from the pound when you collected the car and all the council photos


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Belsizeparkresid...
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:44
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



I have attached the documents and all council photos.

I appreciate your help in advance.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Belsizeparkresident: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 12:49
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image


Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:05
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



S what we have. to start. they cannot be all the photos all timed about 10.30 but the pcn was issued at 08.39. This is of its self wrong. The law requires that when a vehicle is parked legally in a designated parking place, the council cannot issue a PCN until the end of a ten minute grace period, the suspension started at 08.30 so no PCN could be served til 08.41. Wonder if they cottoned on so did not upload earlier photos?

If the PCN is invalid then so must be the removal

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:06


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Belsizeparkresid...
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:38
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



Upon review, I have just seen that unfortunately due to the account attachment size limit on this site, it didn't upload some of the photos. I can confirm that the first batch of photos are taken between 8.40am-8.46am and the second batch of photos were taken between 10.30am-11.06am. So unfortunately, I don't think we can use the above argument in the appeal.

Do you believe there are any other ground to appeal this?

Many thanks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 13:54
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Belsizeparkresident @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:38) *
Upon review, I have just seen that unfortunately due to the account attachment size limit on this site, it didn't upload some of the photos. I can confirm that the first batch of photos are taken between 8.40am-8.46am and the second batch of photos were taken between 10.30am-11.06am. So unfortunately, I don't think we can use the above argument in the appeal.

Do you believe there are any other ground to appeal this?

Many thanks.


personally I think you must use it but you must also use the argument that you parked before the signs were erected and put the council to proof of when they were erected and also adequacy of the signs, but this one might be more difficult you would if this is the correct location be 3 car lengths from the sign, but if you would leave your car walking in the other direction you might be able to make an argument that there should be a sign at the other end of the bay

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5482395,-...3312!8i6656


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:01
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Sign may have been partly obscured by tree foliage.

Council should have log of cars in bay when sign went up.

Note that Camden has a text service to tell you about suspended bays - worth signing up to (if it works).

Camden policy for removal is instant in suspended bays but they could have relocated a resident and should have done if car was in bay before sign.

https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/trans...removal-policy/

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:06
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Belsizeparkresid...
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:15
Post #8


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



Thank you. Good spot.

I will appeal based on 3 grounds:

1) The PCN was issued at 8.39am when the earliest they could issue this was 8.41am. Does anyone have the legislation / code to back up (i) the 10 minute grace period and (ii) that if the PCN is invalid, then the towing was invalid?

2) That the sign was erected after I parked my car. (This may or may not be the case - but I will request proof that it was put up before my car was parked there). Does anyone know the minimum time the notice has to be installed before coming into effect?

3) The positioning and distance of the sign was inadequate - and it is unreasonable to expect one to go hunting for these inadequately located signs when this is the usual place that one is entitled to park

Thanks for all your help. If anyone has anything else to add (and can help with my points above, that would be greatly appreciated).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 14:21
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Belsizeparkresident @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 15:15) *
Thank you. Good spot.

I will appeal based on 3 grounds:

1) The PCN was issued at 8.39am when the earliest they could issue this was 8.41am. Does anyone have the legislation / code to back up (i) the 10 minute grace period and (ii) that if the PCN is invalid, then the towing was invalid?

2) That the sign was erected after I parked my car. (This may or may not be the case - but I will request proof that it was put up before my car was parked there). Does anyone know the minimum time the notice has to be installed before coming into effect?

3) The positioning and distance of the sign was inadequate - and it is unreasonable to expect one to go hunting for these inadequately located signs when this is the usual place that one is entitled to park

Thanks for all your help. If anyone has anything else to add (and can help with my points above, that would be greatly appreciated).


The regs

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/56...gulation/2/made

Adjudicators usual say between 3 and 4 days in advance of the suspension but some have said up to a week. There is no law on this

Re the positioning of the signs to comply with

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/24...ulation/18/made

You argue that it should be free from obstruction by foliage and that there should be a sign at both ends of the bay Same regs as above apply



--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Belsizeparkresid...
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 15:40
Post #10


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



Thanks. Is there any legislation that says if the PCN is invalid, then the towing / vehicle removal is also invalid? (I ask, because while the PCN was invalid, they may argue that the towing was after the grace period, so the towing was valid...)

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 15:46
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (Belsizeparkresident @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:40) *
Thanks. Is there any legislation that says if the PCN is invalid, then the towing / vehicle removal is also invalid? (I ask, because while the PCN was invalid, they may argue that the towing was after the grace period, so the towing was valid...)


If the PCN falls the tow does too as they can't remove a vehicle not in contravention. But you can get a tow refunded but not a PCN.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 23:15
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Belsizeparkresident @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:40) *
Thanks. Is there any legislation that says if the PCN is invalid, then the towing / vehicle removal is also invalid? (I ask, because while the PCN was invalid, they may argue that the towing was after the grace period, so the towing was valid...)

They can't argue that. If they say the vehicle was towed when in contravention, you answer is that if they had issued a PCN after 8:40, they could have towed your vehicle, but as they didn't issue a valid PCN, they didn't have any right to tow anything.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Brian Haytred
post Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 10:45
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33
Joined: 18 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,498



QUOTE (Belsizeparkresident @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:40) *
Thanks. Is there any legislation that says if the PCN is invalid, then the towing / vehicle removal is also invalid? (I ask, because while the PCN was invalid, they may argue that the towing was after the grace period, so the towing was valid...)

Thanks



Regulation 4 of the General Regulations:


(3) No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the
permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes.
(4) In this regulation—
(a) “designated parking place” means a parking place established by virtue of an order
made under section 1, 6, 9, 32(1)(b), 35 or 45 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 19842
;
(b) “permitted parking period” means—
(i) a period of parking that has been paid for as authorised by or under any order
made relating to the designated parking place; or
(ii) a period of parking for which no charge is payable as authorised by or under
any order made relating to the designated parking place.

The earliest they could issue a PCN was at 8.40:01am

As a VALID pcn was not issued they must refund the removal and storage charges.

5C.— Power of civil enforcement officers to remove vehicles in a civil enforcement area
for parking contraventions in England
(1) Paragraph (2) applies where—
(a) a vehicle has been permitted to remain at rest on a road in a civil enforcement area for
parking contraventions in England; and
(b) a civil enforcement officer has, in accordance with regulation 9 of the Civil Enforcement
of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, fixed a penalty charge
notice to the vehicle or handed such a notice to the person appearing to him to be in charge
of the vehicle.


The PCN was NOT issued in accordance with Regulation 9 because the 10 minute grace period had not expired AND

regulation 9 is off-road contraventions

9.— Penalty charge notices for off-road contraventions – service by a civil enforcement
officer
(1) This regulation applies in relation to the service of a penalty charge notice where a vehicle is
stationary in a civil enforcement area otherwise than on a road.
(2) A civil enforcement officer who has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with
respect to the vehicle may serve a penalty charge notice—
(a) by fixing it to the vehicle; or
(b) by giving it to the person appearing to the civil enforcement officer to be in charge of
the vehicle.

9A is on road

9A.— Penalty charge notices for contraventions on a road – service by a civil enforcement
officer
(1) This regulation applies in relation to the service of a penalty charge notice where a vehicle is
stationary on a road in a civil enforcement area.


I would ask for compensation too.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Wed, 20 Jun 2018 - 11:53
Post #14


Member


Group: Closed
Posts: 9,710
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



2170123723

I heard from Mr Pedro, the partner of the appellant at a hearing today.
The appellant makes several points about the validity of the suspension of this bay.
In the first place it is said that Ms MacDougall and Mr Pedro both parked the car together for the last time before the Christmas festivities on Christmas Eve in this bay immediately outside the lowrise flats where they live. It remained there until 6 January when the Penalty Charge Notice was issued. They are adamant that there was no suspension warning sign there on that day nor on any of the days upon which they walked past the bay over the Christmas period. The first that they were aware that there had been a suspension was when they discovered that the car had been removed, and they noticed the yellow suspension sign on the post some 3 or 4 vehicle lengths away. I found Mr Pedro an honest witness and gave weight to his evidence that there was no yellow suspension sign erected up to 14 days before the date of the suspension itself, as claimed by the Authority.
I have considered the officer's record as to the suspension, on which the council relies for the assertion that the suspension sign was indeed erected 14 days prior to 6 January. I note that the wording of the record is not in terms conclusive of the fact that a sign had been erected – it merely seems to confirm that an order for suspension had been made. To that extent therefore and taken together with the persuasive evidence of Mr Pedro I conclude that there is some confusion about when the suspension sign was in fact erected.
I also take into account Mr Pedro's evidence that during this period there were multiple suspensions erected over a period of time in this street and for short periods. It is in those circumstances well within the bounds of likelihood that the keeping track of the suspensions and necessary signage had become difficult.

There is force in the argument that the officer should have allowed a 10 minute period of grace before issuing the Penalty Charge Notice, in line with Section 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015. This is the provision which applies where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place and been left beyond the permitted parking period. The crucial element is that the initial parking must have been lawful. In this case a course it was, at the time the vehicle was left the suspension was not actually in force, even if there is debate about when the warning sign was erected. The suspension came into force at 8 AM on the morning of 6 January and the PCN was issued at 8:02 AM. In the circumstances I conclude that the issue of this PCN was not compliant with the requirements of the "10 minute grace period" regulations and that the appeal could be allowed on that basis.

A final point is on the wording of the sign itself. The appellant points out that it was imprecise, referring to the suspended spaces in relation to the numbers of properties on the opposite side of the street. This can be contrasted with a sign relating to a later suspension (one of the series) in the same bay, a photograph of which was produced by Mr Pedro and which refers to property numbers on the side of the street on which the bay is situated.

And the review

This is an application for review by the Enforcement Authority on the basis that the original Adjudicator has erred in law.
In effect, Enforcement Authority ground is that the original Adjudicator should not have held that Regulation 4(3) of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, as inserted by Regulation 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General (Amendment) Regulations 2015, that no penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes, does apply.
The Enforcement Authority submit that when a bay is suspended, as was the position in this present case, the prevision cannot apply.
In many cases it will not and certainly will not if the vehicle is parked after the suspension comes into force.
In this case the suspension came into force at 08:00 and the Penalty Charge Notice was issued at 08:02.
The vehicle was in a resident parking bay for which it was assigned a resident parking permit. The owner had paid to park their vehicle in the bay by purchasing the permit. It is irrelevant whether it is a physical or virtual permit. Regulation 4(4)(b) of the 2007 Regulations, as amended therefore applies because a period of parking that had been paid for as authorised by or under any order made relating to the designated parking place and that period ended at 08:00.
Considering the submission before me carefully I find no ground for review of the original Adjudicator’s decision, which therefore stands.
_______________________

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Belsizeparkresid...
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 08:35
Post #15


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



Hi Everyone

So I have just heard back from my challenge to my PCN and towing and they have rejected my challenge on the following grounds:

- the 10 minute grace period is not required when a vehicle is parked within a suspended bay. (The grace period only used with regards to the expiry of paid for parking during controlled hours when the bay reverts from being uncontrolled to controlled and does not relate to parking suspensions)
- in the detailed terms and conditions of my residents permit, it says that parking bays may be suspended from time to time and it remains the drivers responsibility to check the vehicle is parked in compliance with all restrictions in place at any given time
- signage in the location was sufficient to inform drivers
- despite the suspension being enforced on 14th June, the signage was placed in this location on 1st June and my vehicle was parked and left in this location from 3rd June

I have attached both my PCN challenge letter and also the rejection notice for your review.

I still have a feeling I will be able to get this overturned - but I would really appreciate your advice and feedback as to whether I have any ground for appealing this decision and what your strategy would be.

Thank you!
Attached File(s)
Attached File  violet_20180725_181222.compressed.pdf ( 292.93K ) Number of downloads: 49
Attached File  PCN_Challenge_CU50801069_Date_19_06_2018_Time_11_41_52.pdf ( 8.53K ) Number of downloads: 49
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 10:29
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,063
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



The car was in contravention so the issuing of a PCN was lawful, but not at 8.39.

The Dereg Act is not the issue. All this did was to amend the TMA, which itself in this regard is an enabling act, so as to explicitly grant powers under that Act to the SoS to make regs as regards ‘grace’ periods. The SoS did so. It’s the regs which count. And not the Amendment regs because all they did was amend the General Regs. The alpha and omega of this issue is the Gen Regs, as amended, and them alone.

So, having got that out of the way I suggest you register your appeal:

Penalty or other charges exceed the .....in the circumstances of the case;
Contravention did not occur.

Add..
Chronologically it would normally be the case that any grounds under ‘contravention did not occur’ would be made first. However, I submit that in this case the authority’s misapplication of the ‘grace’ provision within in the General Regs is so clear and overwhelming that I have put the chronological cart before the horse, or maybe ass would be a more appropriate word in the case of this authority ( leave this bit out, it’s just me!). As regards the ‘grace’ period, I prefer to put my trust in adjudicators A,B, C..(others can provide names) in case numbers X,Y,Z..... rather than L Gallagher, Process Officer, Greenwich Council.....

I would submit your skeleton appeal, which would be copied to the authority, and then write to the latter just to reassure yourself that they intend to resist your appeal and continue to contend that the ‘grace’ period applies - and quote them word for word.

Then sit back.

NB. why is your V5C not up to date?
With what authority did the authority enquire of DVLA anyway?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Belsizeparkresid...
post Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 11:23
Post #17


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



Many thanks.

Just to be crystal clear, when Camden replied saying the 10 min grace period is not required when a vehicle is parked within a suspended bay...is this incorrect?

(This is key, because correct me if i'm wrong, this is really my only line of defense?)

Also, please can you just confirm exactly what you meant by 'Chronologically' and also:

'Penalty or other charges exceed the .....in the circumstances of the case;
Contravention did not occur.'

Many thanks for your help! Appreciated.




Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 20:31
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Belsizeparkresident @ Thu, 26 Jul 2018 - 12:23) *
Many thanks.

Just to be crystal clear, when Camden replied saying the 10 min grace period is not required when a vehicle is parked within a suspended bay...is this incorrect?

Yes it is incorrect.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Belsizeparkresid...
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 13:20
Post #19


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Member No.: 98,481



Is anyone aware of any 'evidence' or 'previous case examples' or anything else to further reinforce my point in my appeal about Camden Council not abiding by the 10 minute grace period rule for a vehicle parked in a suspended residents parking permit bay?

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Tue, 31 Jul 2018 - 14:12
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,063
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



Not needed.

The adjudicator knows the law and is not bound by another adjudicator’s decision anyway.

And get actions in chronological order!

Register your appeal by submitting your grounds plus skeleton argument.

Worry later about putting your full appeal together.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 23:35
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here