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PCN - Doncaster, NCP - Hire Vehicle
Bidshd
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:48
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Hello all

I've recently received a PCN from NCP, alleging that I an liable for a PCN of £100

The vehicle in question was a hire vehicle and at this stage I am unsure who was driving

Date of Incident: **MID**/11/2018
Date of sending this notice: 08/02/19

The letter states that ANPR captured the registration and the vehicle was parked from around 6pm - 11pm and it was parked without payment, liability for the same having been brought to the drivers attention by clear signage in and around the site
Now I know that car park and it's very poorly lit, especially at 6pm mid November, if lit at all and the signs are very small. There's also a local beggar that sits at the side of the pay machine, which can be intimidating for some

It states that a Notice to Keeper has previously been served and this contains the full details of the charge (although does not state when or to whom this was served)

I'm unsure what to do with this as I've not really had any dealings with PCN's before and I'm struggling a little with finding a definitive answer

If someone could help that would be great, I can provide more info from the letter if needed

Thanks
B
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post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:48
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Glacier2
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:50
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Can you post up the notice minus your personal information?
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Redivi
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:53
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Did NCP include a copy of the hire documents ?

If not, they have no right to recover payment from the Hirer if they don't know who was driving
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Bidshd
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:01
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QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:50) *
Can you post up the notice minus your personal information?


Would you like me to scan the letter?
Do I leave dates times & registration visible or not?

QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 15:53) *
Did NCP include a copy of the hire documents ?

If not, they have no right to recover payment from the Hirer if they don't know who was driving

NCP have only sent a single double sided document (front & rear)), there are no hire documents. I know they have been in contact with the hire company, Enterprise, as I have had an admin charge from them which I have since had quashed

This post has been edited by Bidshd: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:20
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Bidshd
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 16:19
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cabbyman
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 19:28
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So many PoFA fails.

Straight off, they failed to get the PCN to the keeper within 14 days; they failed to include hire documents; period of parking is NOT calculated from time of passing ANPR.

Go through this and tick off all their failures:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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ostell
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 22:29
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14 days is not applicable for lease cars and they haven't included a copy of the original PCN to check.

If a copy of the lease agreement AND the original PCN to the lease company are not there then the appeal is :

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send so that it arrives on day 19 after the date on the letter. First class with free certificate of posting from a post office.
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Bidshd
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:06
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 22:29) *
14 days is not applicable for lease cars and they haven't included a copy of the original PCN to check.

If a copy of the lease agreement AND the original PCN to the lease company are not there then the appeal is :

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send so that it arrives on day 19 after the date on the letter. First class with free certificate of posting from a post office.


Brilliant, thank you for the replies everyone so far

Just checking; This does apply as it was a hire vehicle from Enterprise, not a long term lease vehicle?
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:34
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Yes
Read POFA2012 schedule 4 para 13/14 if you want to check for yourself.
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Bidshd
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:44
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 10:34) *
Yes
Read POFA2012 schedule 4 para 13/14 if you want to check for yourself.

Thank you for the reply, I was just making sure before I do anything

I appreciate all the feedback and assistance with this and I will indeed have a read of the above although I'm not sure how much of it will make sense to me or indeed stick in the old brain space biggrin.gif
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cabbyman
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 16:43
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When did Enterprise contact you?

I'm looking at the possible time that it took NCP to receive the hire docs from Enterprise. PoFA, sec 14 requires that they must send the PCN to the hirer within 21 days of receiving the docs from the hire company. I'm wondering if there may be mileage in that argument, depending on the dates.


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Bidshd
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 13:32
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 16:43) *
When did Enterprise contact you?

I'm looking at the possible time that it took NCP to receive the hire docs from Enterprise. PoFA, sec 14 requires that they must send the PCN to the hirer within 21 days of receiving the docs from the hire company. I'm wondering if there may be mileage in that argument, depending on the dates.


I received an email (Citation Notice) from Enterprise 00:49 06/12/19, the attached pdf is dated 05/12/19

Dear Customer,
We were recently notified about a traffic violation notice for a vehicle rented to you at the time of the offence.

As per our rental agreement, we are notifying you of your liability. As the owners of the vehicle, we are required to provide the
hirer details to the relevant issuing authority who will in turn re-issue the fine to you. Once you have received this you will be
able to respond, pay or appeal directly to the authority.

Please note that if the reduced amount of the fine is applicable, you will still have the opportunity to pay this when the fine is
reissued to you.

In the case of speeding offences, once the fine is reissued, you will need to respond to the Police directly using the form they
provide.

As a reminder, your signature on the rental contract gives Enterprise full authorization to process any applicable charges for
associated administration fees. We will attempt to charge the card listed below.

Note: The administration fee is NOT part or full payment of the fine. You will need to pay the fine separately.

Details of the offence and your rental agreement are listed below. Full details will be available once the fine is reissued to you.

Yours Sincerely,

Traffic Violations Department
Enterprise Holdings

Operating
Enterprise Rent-A-Car
National Car Rental
Alamo Rent-A-Car

Issuing Agency : NCP - National Car Parks
Limited
Citation Number : XXXXXXXXX
Citation Issue Date/Time : 16/11/2018
Location Of Offense :XXXXXXXXX
Plate Number : XXXXXX
Citation Amount Due : £0.00
Admin Fee Due : £35.00

If you have any queries regarding this invoice please contact the Traffic Violations Department on 01784 428 010

05/12/2018

Contract Number : XXXX
Contract Open Dte/Time : XXXXXX
Contract Close Dte/Time : XXXXXX
Credit Card Number : XXXX

Invoice/Notice Information Contract Information

Total Amount Due:£35.00
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Redivi
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 14:13
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When my daughter worked for Enterprise, she always cancelled the PCN admin charges

She said they were the single largest cause of complaints

The group that included Alamo were much more predatory
If you removed their stickers that identified a hire car, they charged £30 to replace them

Never hired from Alamo but I always removed the stickers
Had the theory that hire cars were specifically targeted in patrolled car parks :

The PPC didn't have to contact the DVLA for keeper details and most companies would pay the parking notice then pass on the charge
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Bidshd
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 14:47
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 14:13) *
When my daughter worked for Enterprise, she always cancelled the PCN admin charges

She said they were the single largest cause of complaints

The group that included Alamo were much more predatory
If you removed their stickers that identified a hire car, they charged £30 to replace them

Never hired from Alamo but I always removed the stickers
Had the theory that hire cars were specifically targeted in patrolled car parks :

The PPC didn't have to contact the DVLA for keeper details and most companies would pay the parking notice then pass on the charge


I've heard that quoted before about it being their largest source of complaints, I would also imagine it's a large source of income also what with a lot of fleet managers not checking or caring and unsuspecting members of the public getting automatically charged to the card they used to hire the vehicle

This vehicle didn't have any markings or stickers as it was pretty much brand new and from their 'premium range' as Enterprise called it

I will say that Enterprise have since cancelled the charge, only because, by chance, I was opening a corporate account with the local branch
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Redivi
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 14:59
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This vehicle didn't have any markings or stickers as it was pretty much brand new and from their 'premium range' as Enterprise called it

She also told me that the best cars and upgrades are usually only available to corporate clients with their own insurance
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Bidshd
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:24
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 14:59) *
This vehicle didn't have any markings or stickers as it was pretty much brand new and from their 'premium range' as Enterprise called it

She also told me that the best cars and upgrades are usually only available to corporate clients with their own insurance

This one was before the corporate account was open and it was through our insurance company following someone driving into my vehicle, Insurance specified like for like
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ostell
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 17:21
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So that letter is so incorrect. They are talking about fines, authority, violation, offences etc. Your parking ticket was none of these, it was simply an invoice. What is on the Ts & Cs ?
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cabbyman
post Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 21:02
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I think that there's a good chance that NCP didn't send out the NtH within the 21 days specified in the Act.

If you work on the assumption that Enterprise wrote to you and NCP at the same time, NCP should have received the info BY 7-8/12/18???

It would then appear that it took them nearly two months to send the NtH.

This needs further enquiry of Enterprise to ask when they sent the response to NCP.


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 09:04
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Cabbyman - the charge was cancelled by Enterprise.
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Redivi
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 09:44
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Weren't there two charges in play ?

The Enterprise admin charge that's been cancelled

The original NCP parking charge that's still in play but can't be recovered :

We already knew about the failure to provide the hire documents but are now also certain that NCP left it too late to send the Notice to Hirer
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