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PCN outside a school
dannischafer
post Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 09:05
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I am wondering if anyone can help me.

My mum received a PCN through the post on Saturday, It is a motability vehicle and I am the named driver and was driving at the time of offence with my mum in the vehicle (who obviously has a blue badge)

The contravention code is 48 (stopped in a restricted area outside a school when prohibited). the photo from pcn is: [attachment=14793:photo.JPG]

and makes it look like I had stopped on the zig zags from the angle it was taken but I was actually on double yellows. Here is a pictures of where I stopped: [attachment=14794:photo__1_.JPG]

As far as i'm aware with a disabled badge I am allowed to stop (and park even) on double yellow lines (but I was there less than 1 minute and didnt even get out of the car)

Do you think I have a right to appeal this?

Thanks
Danielle

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post Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 09:05
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dannischafer
post Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 12:39
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Ah right, Thank you for explaining that.

If i'm to challenge this then, I can email or go on to a website and give my reasons for appealing. Would you be able to help on What is the best way of going about this? what wording I should use etc...?


sorry, i've just seen your full reply on your other post.
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Hippocrates
post Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 12:39
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Do not appeal yet until we get the information required. Do that first, please.


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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dannischafer
post Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 12:46
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I have requested the information from the council as you have suggested. I will post details as soon as I have a reply.

Thanks ever so much for your help

Danielle
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Hippocrates
post Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 12:51
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No worries. biggrin.gif


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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hcandersen
post Mon, 16 Apr 2012 - 14:07
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Can we focus on the contravention?

Why did you stop for what appears to be a very short time at this peculiar location?


HCA
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dannischafer
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:02
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Thanks for all your help so far. I received a reply earlier today as follows:

Dear **********,

Thank you for your email dated 16/04/2011.

Please find attached a copy of the relevant Traffic Management Order, a copy of the notes made by the Civil Enforcement Officer at the time of contravention and a copy of the Certification of "Approved Devices".

The image on the Penalty Charge Notice is a still image taken from CCTV footage of your vehicle. To view the full footage online please go to:


http://havering.appeals-online.co.uk/formal.aspx and quote web code number ********. If you are unable to view this online please visit The Public Advice and Service Centre, located in the Liberty shopping centre Romford, between 9am and 4pm Monday to Friday (all this information can be found on the Penalty Charge Notice).

Please visit our website for the Code of practice for CCTV enforcement:

www.havering.gov.uk and follow these links:

Services/Transport and Streets/Parking/Street parking - enforcement and fines.

Under the heading 'Download' (located on the right) select 'Code of practice for CCTV enforcement'.

I would advise that the request you have made does not place the case on hold. If you wish to make representations or payment please refer to your Penalty Charge Notice in regards to how long you have to do this.

Kind Regards




[attachment=14888:Certific..._Devices.pdf]

[attachment=14887:Traffic_...nt_Order.pdf]

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Hippocrates
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:20
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They have not provided the CEO's notes , nor the camera details save for the VCA certificate/letter nor proof that whatever camera was in whatever car on the day. How does the TMO shape up, bama?


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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bama
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:22
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that Order is OLD !
lots of out of date (repealed) legislation references and dependencies


NTO restricts to just one statutory ground doesn't it ?


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Hippocrates
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:29
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I agree re the TMO, but the NtO does state box or boxes.

@OP:- no intention to confuse you as the PCN acts as an NtO because it was served by post. Which means you get one chance at making a representation and I am sure everyone will make it a glowing one for you!

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:32


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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dannischafer
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:33
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i have a pdf of CEO notes, but cannot upload as saying exceeds limit and I dont know how to make file smaller
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Hippocrates
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:35
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OK, but no proof of camera, make, model in the actual car? Not my forte advising how to upload, I am afraid. Someone will help soon.


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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hcandersen
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 20:50
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And you stopped for what reason?

HCA
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dannischafer
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 21:02
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the details on the top of the CEO notes just state the date, camera operator, & vehicle reg. then just the date, time, my vehicle reg, make, colour (which they have as black and it isnt! its grey) and Camera (which under this it says MAST).

HCANDERSON....I stopped to let my mother and daughter out of the car. I was there literally 30 seconds not even that. My mum cant walk far distances so I stopped the nearest I could for her. I dont see this as a peculiar location at all and reason behind me stopping surely makes no difference?
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qafqa
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 21:04
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QUOTE
i have a pdf of CEO notes, but cannot upload as saying exceeds limit and I dont know how to make file smaller


Please give the file a descriptive name and paste the link in your thread.
PDF Uploader, For TROs & PPOs (not images)

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=53339&hl=

This post has been edited by qafqa: Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 21:05
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dannischafer
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 21:13
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QUOTE (qafqa @ Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 22:04) *
QUOTE
i have a pdf of CEO notes, but cannot upload as saying exceeds limit and I dont know how to make file smaller


Please give the file a descriptive name and paste the link in your thread.
PDF Uploader, For TROs & PPOs (not images)

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=53339&hl=



Thank you so much for that!!

http://davidmarq.com/uploaderv6_1/files/7/CEO%20notes.pdf

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Hippocrates
post Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 21:39
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Question? Mast camera, is it the same as certificated?


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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hcandersen
post Fri, 20 Apr 2012 - 09:19
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Challenge on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

!. The restriction which is purportedly in place is that vehicles must not stop.
2. This restriction would have been made under an order under section 6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
3. That section provides a power to traffic authorities to impose a range of restrictions. IMO the applicable one here would be:
QUOTE
15Places in streets where vehicles, or vehicles of any class, may, or may not, wait, either generally or at particular times.


4. Therefore, although the so-called contravention relates to "stopping", the authority does not have it within its power to make an order regarding stopping in these circumstances, but can make one regarding waiting.

5. If you were only stationary for 30 seconds or so, then various adjudicators have held that this is nominal and that waiting has not occurred. In any event, you could argue that waiting allows passengers to alight and so waiting as such did not occur. But if it did, your argument would therefore be that you were waiting for a nominal amount of time which is not considered by adjudicators to constitute a contravention.


But it does depend on whether you can show for how long you were stationary.

Wait for others to comment as I've not seen the issue of school markings argued in this way before and perhaps there's a loophole. If so, I'm confident others will find it.


HCA
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Hippocrates
post Sun, 22 Apr 2012 - 14:32
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QUOTE (Hippocrates @ Thu, 19 Apr 2012 - 22:39) *
Question? Mast camera, is it the same as certificated?


They have failed to name the camera used or supplied proof it was in the car. Also, the VCA letter/certificate is defective, too.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 - 14:34


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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dannischafer
post Tue, 24 Apr 2012 - 21:15
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Thank you so much for all your help.

Can somebody please advise what my next step should be. Do I appeal this on these grounds that you have suggested? If so what should I state, is there a right way to word it etc..?

Need to get this sorted ASAP as nearing time limit.

Thanks
Danni
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SchoolRunMum
post Tue, 24 Apr 2012 - 23:27
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HCAndersen has already given you most of it, just draft a letter based on the info you have been given here and post it here first. It's best in your own words, we don't use templates. But you can of course copy & paste chunks of advice like HCA's and then tweak the wording to make a readable letter format.
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