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5 important questions and PTR coming up!, cal. certs(1), cal. certs(2), Gatso power, merged
Cheshirelad2
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 13:41
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1. I am fighting a case which is going to pre trial review in two weeks. I don’t know what to say. Can anyone help.

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2..I asked the police a lot of questions that I found in a book but they did not even bother to reply. E.g. I noticed that the gatsometer calibration certificate was signed by someone high up in the company. I doubt very much whether he actually tested the equipment so on what basis can he sign it?



3. Also the summons is defective in that it does not refer me to the local article and order which they mention n general terms on the summons ie it says something like “contrary to a local article and order”.



4. I am thinking of writing to politicians to complain. Who should I write to.

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5. I am thinking of writing to the Council to see how they came to change the speed limit. Who should I write to and what questions can I ask. Is it too late now anyway?

This post has been edited by Cheshirelad2: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 13:42
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post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 13:41
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andy_foster
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 13:44
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Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard, and then post the Wizard's output back here to enable us to help you.


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Cheshirelad2
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 13:50
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I have examined my speed camera calibration certificate and I can see that it signed by a big wig in the company. You can even find him on Wikipedia.

There is no way that that person could have done the testing of the camera to give the certificate. He is practically the leader of the whole company and would not have the time. So why should he be able to submit evidence saying that the certificate was caliibrated by signing it?

I reckon he just signed a load of certificates as a matter of admininstration.

I have asked for the documents of the company which gave rise to the certificate but they have not supplied this. How far can I push this point?

I feel really really aggrieved and did not know the English justice system was so flawed.
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Quattro
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 14:33
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QUOTE (Cheshirelad2 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 14:50) *
I feel really really aggrieved and did not know the English justice system was so flawed.


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bama
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 14:43
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have seen various examples signed by 'Field Engineer" "Field Service Manager" and "Approved Signatory"
Couple of examples ( I am sure there are more on the web).
http://www.safetycamera.org.uk/pd/TRUVELO-COMBI.gif
http://www.safetycamera.org.uk/pd/AM-CERT.gif

Am not a lawyer but if the guy signing the certs is removed from the actual testing by a layer of two of management it does seem to make his signature 'heresay' as he cannot to attest first hand to anything about the testing.
I suppose the answer to who should sign is somewhere in the bowels of the HOSDB...


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Cheshirelad2
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 22:39
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I doubt whether the signatory to the certificate could have signed it. He is one of owners/directors or whatever of the company. If he was doing testing of the equipment personally then his company would go down because he should be strategising not doing the donkey work!

I even found his name on Wikipedia.
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Cheshirelad2
post Thu, 8 Nov 2007 - 16:46
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Hello forumites

You can see a copy of a calibration certificate by googling "calibration certificate;gatso;signature" I think.

What bugs me is the vagueness of the calibration certificate which makes me think that it stands a high chance of being faked or simply signed off as an admin thing by "Th. M. Janssen Technology mnager". The signatory does not even have the guts to state his full name (thereby concealing his identity).

The signatory states "Date of calibration.....05 January 2007" but does not state who undertook the calibration.

However, Dr J F Miller (does anyone know his full name and how he can be contacted?) states in the Home Office guidelines "A Guide to Calibration Requirements for Traffic Enforcement Equipment"

At para 2.2:

"Adequate test equipment and facilities shall be available to the person carryying out the calibration procedure. All equipment used for calibration shall be certified annually by a competant body with equipment traceable to national standards"

Question:
Does this mean that on top of a calibration certificate, a prosecutor really should give you some kind of proof that the calibration equipment should also come with a its own certificate. Makes sense.


At para 2.3:

"Prior to calibration of the enforcement device, the calibration records of the test equipment to be used shall be checked to ensure they have been tested witin the last year with equipment traceable to national standards"

Question:

Therefore are there further documents here?

Then at para 2.4:

"A calibration certificate shall be supplied to the police force using the device, with a copy held on record by the person who has calibrated the device. In addition to device specific requirements listed later in this document, the calibration certificate shall include:

i) the name of the individual who undertook the calibration....."

Question:

This certificate does not state that the signatory even did the calibrations!!!

My certificate does not even give the full name of Theodorus Maria Janssen.

I therefore say it's invalid.

Problem is that the Home Office try to cover this up by saying that this is not law. Merely a guideline. Therefore what is the point of having any guidelines at all if these people need not follow them. Doesn't make sense! Dr Miller wrote what he did (as above) because it makes sense and quite logical as a bare minimum of fair practice.

Can anyone enlighten me further?




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Cheshirelad2
post Thu, 8 Nov 2007 - 16:56
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Oops

If you google "calibration certificate;634;Radar type 24" you can find the certificate on the Staffordshire County Council site.

Has anyone tried to argue that the calib certificate is invalid on the basis of what i have mentioned above?
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Captain A
post Thu, 8 Nov 2007 - 17:07
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QUOTE
the calibration certificate shall include:

i) the name of the individual who undertook the calibration....."


I am sure that others with more experience (and/or brains!) will comment, but imho if the certificate must have the name of the individual and it doesn't have it then it is not a valid certificate.
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Cheshirelad2
post Thu, 8 Nov 2007 - 17:15
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Thanks for that. I agree that it is invalid, but I think that the prosecutor and court clerk will try to pull the wool over the magistrates eyes by saying that it is guidance and not law.

Anyway what do other people think and what about my other points about other certificates.

Also has this been tested in court?
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Cheshirelad2
post Fri, 9 Nov 2007 - 15:16
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In addition, if there secondary check (photos; lines) seems to evidence the speed limit infringement, then does that mean that the caibration certificate is iirelevant? Or does a faulty calibration mean a faulty primary check (radar says speed limit broken) and faulty secondary check?
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Cheshirelad2
post Mon, 12 Nov 2007 - 18:39
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By the way. Try this.

Get a Gatso calibration certificate off the internet. Any one. Then compare it to yours. Hold both up to the light. (One on top of the other). Some of you will see that one is definitely a copy of the other. They are identical. Therefore, although these certifcates are supposed to be signed, one of them clearly (the later one) has not been signed.

The later one is obviously a copy of a master document with the date entered into later. This means that these certificates can be generated at the flick of a switch without being genuinely signed. I find this disgraceful. The guidelines say that they are to be signed for a logical reason. They make the calibrator get his finger out and actually do the calibration properly. Accountability and personal responsibility. Now he does need to but can still issue the certificate.

Does that copy (generated) signature constitute a "signature"???

It really just gets worse. Private corporations are given a green light to flout whatever they want to as long as they work for the prosecution. We really are careering to a police state.

Make sure you ask to see the ORIGINAL calibration certificate. Ie signed one...ie with a pen and ink!
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Cheshirelad2
post Fri, 16 Nov 2007 - 12:54
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I am at the stage where I am about to ask the prosecution to disclose to me information about the gatsos which "caught" me.

I was speaking ta gatso expert who said that there have been successful defences by people on the basis that the gatsos were powered incorrectly. Is this right. Also what queestions should I ask.

On a side issue the prosecution have not provided me with the local order under which I am supposed to be prosecuted despite me asking for 6 months. Pathetic. The CPS rep undertook to provide it to me within 14 days of the last hearing. He did not.
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Muggerbee
post Fri, 16 Nov 2007 - 16:05
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As I recall the gatso power issue related to temporary units set up to run on generators
when only type approved for mains or batter power.



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The Rookie
post Sun, 18 Nov 2007 - 04:50
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You can ask for a copy of the TRO for the road in question from the local county council, or the highways agency for a trunk road, its a public document they have to give to be able to show to anyone anyway...

If we knew what type of road you were caught on it would help, obviously national speed limit roads (including street lit restricted roads) do not need an order UNLESS the limit has previously been other than the national limit for that type of road.

Simon


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fatboytim
post Sun, 18 Nov 2007 - 12:18
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A couple of points that spring to mind, I have some experience of calibration, including 'traceable to national standards' ie BS, DIN and ISO etc.

Your point about the Co. Manager signing the Cert may be weak as, a number of different tests on the item may have been carried out by different people in different depts or even different companies, the Co. manager may be the point at which these test results are collated and he checks them all for their compliance, if they are all within the correct parameters he could sign the Calibration Certificate. You could ask for the individual test results and the tracability to National Standards of the equipment used.

If you are 100% sure the signitures are scanned and printed, I'd be tempted to pipe down, as you have raised the calibration issue, it would be difficult for the CPS to cry 'ambush' during the trial if the original signed (in ink) Cal. Cert. is not adduced during the Pros case, allowing a submission of 'No Case to Answer'.

North Wales had a problem with scanned signitures on statements, leading to aquittals.


fatboytim


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Cheshirelad2
post Wed, 21 Nov 2007 - 16:40
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Thanks for that.

I wonder whether anyone knows what discolsure and what investigation I need to make in reagrdto :

1. Signage

2. Power for the GATSO

Thanks
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Cheshirelad2
post Wed, 21 Nov 2007 - 23:14
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 18 Nov 2007 - 04:50) *
You can ask for a copy of the TRO for the road in question from the local county council, or the highways agency for a trunk road, its a public document they have to give to be able to show to anyone anyway... If we knew what type of road you were caught on it would help, obviously national speed limit roads (including street lit restricted roads) do not need an order UNLESS the limit has previously been other than the national limit for that type of road. Simon


It was an A road.

Can I find out on the internet if they don't need a local order? If I write to the County Council it will take ages to get a response.

What annoys me then is that the local order and article which they put on the summons might have been a red herring to lead me up the garden path!
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The Rookie
post Thu, 22 Nov 2007 - 13:29
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Well fill in the NIP wizard and also tell us about the road, if its an A-road with a 60 limit thats the national speed limit and no order is needed, likewise an A-road with lights is a 30 limit that would need an order to set it above the 30mph of a restricted road.

Best advice comes from good information, right now we have an absence of info and you get the advice consumate with that!

Simon


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Cheshirelad2
post Thu, 22 Nov 2007 - 14:29
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 22 Nov 2007 - 13:29) *
Well fill in the NIP wizard and also tell us about the road, if its an A-road with a 60 limit thats the national speed limit and no order is needed, likewise an A-road with lights is a 30 limit that would need an order to set it above the 30mph of a restricted road. Best advice comes from good information, right now we have an absence of info and you get the advice consumate with that! Simon


Thanks Simon.

It was a dual carriageway. Do you know who sets the speed limit and what authority they need to make the speed limit? At least then i could ask for that.

I will try to do the NIP wizard in a bit.

Cheers

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