speeding fine, no appropriate signage, no red ring around speed limit sign Options

[shepheadsfoot]

hello, new to the forums, any help would be appreciated regarding my speeding fine.

i was caught by an average speed check camera doing 37 in a 30 mph zone, however due to the circumstances im not sure whether it is worth disputing the matter in court.

so basically i turned right onto a dual carriageway with an added bus lane, there is an average speed camera pretty much as soon as you turn onto the road (new town row), however the only speed limit sign visible is a round 30 mph sign with no red ring, as it appears to have worn away, there are no other speed limit signs until you reach the next average speed camera, now from a legal standpoint the sign is not up to standard, and given that the road has the characteristics of a 40 mph speed limit zone, i am unsure where i stand.

I have received and replied to the 'letter of intent to prosecute' confirming that it was me driving, but now i have received the follow up letter asking me if i want to pay the fine and receive 3 point or go to court to dispute the matter (i have already done a speed awareness course 2 years ago ).

has anyone on this forum ever taken a similar issue to court and won? i would rather dispute the fine as i don't want the 3 points, but i am aware that doing so could cost more more money in court fines. any advice is greatly appreciated, and apologies for my very poorly written explanation.

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[666]

hello, new to the forums, any help would be appreciated regarding my speeding fine.

i was caught by an average speed check camera doing 37 in a 30 mph zone, however due to the circumstances im not sure whether it is worth disputing the matter in court.

so basically i turned right onto a dual carriageway with an added bus lane, there is an average speed camera pretty much as soon as you turn onto the road (new town row), however the only speed limit sign visible is a round 30 mph sign with no red ring, as it appears to have worn away, there are no other speed limit signs until you reach the next average speed camera, now from a legal standpoint the sign is not up to standard, and given that the road has the characteristics of a 40 mph speed limit zone, i am unsure where i stand.

I have received and replied to the 'letter of intent to prosecute' confirming that it was me driving, but now i have received the follow up letter asking me if i want to pay the fine and receive 3 point or go to court to dispute the matter (i have already done a speed awareness course 2 years ago ).

has anyone on this forum ever taken a similar issue to court and won? i would rather dispute the fine as i don't want the 3 points, but i am aware that doing so could cost more more money in court fines. any advice is greatly appreciated, and apologies for my very poorly written explanation.

What was the speed limit of the road from which you entered the dual carriageway?

What are "the characteristics of a 40 mph speed limit zone"? AFAIK there are none.

Can you tell us the location, or provide a Streetview link?

[Jlc]

The sign you've posted is an optional camera warning sign - the absence of red circle will make no difference.

My guess would be it's a restricted limit delimited by a system of street lighting. This makes it 30mph (even in the absence of signs by and large) even if you didn't pass a 30mph terminal sign.

What are "the characteristics of a 40 mph speed limit zone"? AFAIK there are none.

40mph signs

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 - 07:55

[Ahelpinggand]

Is this Birmingham by any chance?

New John Street?

Terminal Signage is there before the traffic lights and you would have entered the road from a 30 mph zone if off a side street or the traffic lights.

Road is a restricted road 30 mph as the streetlights will inform you. As TLC notes the sign you refer to is not required so is a non starter.

[shepheadsfoot]

I'd define a 40 mp zone as a dual carriageway with no residential properties.

gov.co.uk definition 'Roads suitable for a 40 mph limit are generally higher quality suburban roads or those on the outskirts of urban areas where there is little development.'

the road i was on before turning onto new town road is a 30 mph speed limit, which im now assuming means i will have no chance of disputing it

here are the coordinates 52.492698, -1.895790

[Jlc]

I'd define a 40 mp zone as a dual carriageway with no residential properties.

gov.co.uk definition 'Roads suitable for a 40 mph limit are generally higher quality suburban roads or those on the outskirts of urban areas where there is little development.'

You're not the only person to think this but the limits are clear. The terminal signs set the start of the limit - if there's a system of street lighting (no more than 200 yards apart) and no signs to the contrary then it's a restricted limit of 30mph.

the road i was on before turning onto new town road is a 30 mph speed limit, which im now assuming means i will have no chance of disputing it

If there were no 40 signs then it's still a 30. A bit further down the road it does turn into a 40 - here.

You no not appear to have a defence so the fixed penalty of 3 points £100 will be the best offer you'll get.

Should you want to dispute at court then it will be a costly day out. If you go to trial maintaining a not guilty plea then the fine becomes means tested, costs starting at £620 and a surcharge of at least £34 should you lose. Still only 3 points though.

here are the coordinates 52.492698, -1.895790

Here - note the other optional sign on the right with a red circle... (The faded one on the left is not a defence)

But no 40 signs and a system of street lighting means the limit is still 30.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 - 09:11

[andy_foster]

The 'defective' sign is a 'diagram 880' (of the TSRGD sign) which is permitted but not required on a restricted road within (IIRC) 1km of a fixed or mobile speed camera site. (IIRC again) it can only (lawfully) be placed on a restricted road (30mph by virtue of a compliant system of street lighting).
No other speed limit 'repeater' signs (other than matrix type or roundels painted on the road) are permitted on a restricted road. N.B. The 'terminal signs' (indicating a change of speed limit) are placed where the speed limit changes (or at least they should be), not where the road changes within that speed limit.

[Ahelpinggand]

Junction with New John Street.

No faults in Signage as far as I have ever seen. Terminals are just before the lights coming from the expressway if turning right onto New Town Road from there.

Street lights are compliant to create a restricted road.

[notmeatloaf]

If it helps, there are only three "default" speed limits in the UK for cars.

30mph - street lit areas
60mph - non-street lit single carriageway roads
70mph - non-street lit dual carriageways and motorways

(There is technically unrestricted as well on a handful of roads but they are all signed at 70mph or lower.)

With more speed limits being lowered it is best to assume 30mph unless you see repeaters telling you otherwise.

The idea of 40mph dual carriageways is oddly persistent and you are by no means the first to be disabused of the notion by the police.

[Logician]

No defence there, and just too fast for a course so the fixed penalty is the best result you can get. You are not alone, many people are caught there.

[andy_foster]

If it helps, there are only three "default" speed limits in the UK for cars.

70mph - motorways (street lit or otherwise)
30mph - street lit areas (non motorway)
60mph - non-street lit single carriageway roads (non motorway)
70mph - non-street lit dual carriageways and motorways

Close, but no cigar

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 - 21:37

[Editing]

No defence there, and just too fast for a course so the fixed penalty is the best result you can get. You are not alone, many people are caught there.

He says he was doing 37 in a 30. I thought a speed awareness course is available up to 42mph? (10%+9)

[BaggieBoy]

No defence there, and just too fast for a course so the fixed penalty is the best result you can get. You are not alone, many people are caught there.

He says he was doing 37 in a 30. I thought a speed awareness course is available up to 42mph? (10%+9)

It is...however OP has done a speed awareness course 2 years ago, so not available to them.

[douglasb]

He also said that he did an awareness course two years ago.

[Logician]

No defence there, and just too fast for a course so the fixed penalty is the best result you can get. You are not alone, many people are caught there.

He says he was doing 37 in a 30. I thought a speed awareness course is available up to 42mph? (10%+9)

You are quite right, I think I put the right comment on the wrong post!

[notmeatloaf]

Close, but no cigar

Excellent point. The only single carriageway stretch of motorway in the UK under NSL is less than 350 metres long. But for those who wish to accelerate to 70mph between a roundabout and a T-junction, it's useful knowledge.

[The Rookie]

Erm that's not the change he made.

The point is that special roads (aka motorways) do not become restricted roads when street lit, so don't need any order/signage to show that the limit stays at 70mph, unlike dual carriageways which do. You had lumped the two together incorrectly.

[TMC Towcester]

Erm that's not the change he made.

The point is that special roads (aka motorways) do not become restricted roads when street lit, so don't need any order/signage to show that the limit stays at 70mph, unlike dual carriageways which do. You had lumped the two together incorrectly.

There are many. many 'special roads' which are lit, non-motorway, but where NSL applies....................(signed of course!)

[IanJohnsonWS14]

Close, but no cigar

Excellent point. The only single carriageway stretch of motorway in the UK under NSL is less than 350 metres long. But for those who wish to accelerate to 70mph between a roundabout and a T-junction, it's useful knowledge.

You have never been on the Aston Expressway then.

[cp8759]

There are many. many 'special roads' which are lit, non-motorway, but where NSL applies....................(signed of course!)

The NSL cannot, by definition, apply to any non-motorway special road. There is no national speed limit at all on such roads, only local limits imposed by a local traffic order can apply.

the road i was on before turning onto new town road is a 30 mph speed limit, which im now assuming means i will have no chance of disputing it

No chance at all I'm afraid. In Humber v Director of Public Prosecutions [2008] EWHC 2932 (Admin) https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2018/2932.html the High Court said:

There is no question of motorists having no way of knowing, in the absence of proper signs, whether a road is restricted. That is in principle apparent from the fact that they are in a built-up area (as shown by the system of street lighting in place). Although the relevant provisions may not be as well-known as they should be, they are in fact referred to in the Highway Code: see the definition of 'built-up areas' on the table of speed limits.